F15E's trounced by Eurofighters

Well, keep hoping. You really ought to get your burning hatred of the
F-22 checked out by a mental health professional. You're FAR over the
line into raving obsession.

Celebration, Scotty.

You were wrong all along.

Maybe you'll prove it by posting some pictures of those strakes.

"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message
news

Well, keep hoping. You really ought to get your burning hatred of the
F-22 checked out by a mental health professional. You're FAR over the
line into raving obsession.

Celebration, Scotty.

You were wrong all along.

Maybe you'll prove it by posting some pictures of those strakes.

Why?

With you batting zero here at ram, you lack the credibility to even question
me.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:28:40 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:04:47 -0000, "Ian" wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
. ..

First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a
"first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around
learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud
Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably
quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and
engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and
"ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...."

You've described a violation of training and safety regulations.

Violation on whose part?


I can't speak for the RAF, but their regs are remarkably similar to
USAF's. It would be a violation to conduct an unbriefed DACT
engagement. Spontanous "bouncing" goes on, but it isn't condoned.

There's no point in doing it. It doesn't meet any training objectives,
it isn't controlled, it is downright dangerous and without pre-briefed
ROE proves nothing.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Not to mention if you bust something while doing it you might be in
hot water? :-)

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:04:47 -0000, "Ian" wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a
"first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around
learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud
Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably
quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and
engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and
"ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...."

You've described a violation of training and safety regulations.

Violation on whose part?


I can't speak for the RAF, but their regs are remarkably similar to
USAF's. It would be a violation to conduct an unbriefed DACT
engagement. Spontanous "bouncing" goes on, but it isn't condoned.

There's no point in doing it. It doesn't meet any training objectives,
it isn't controlled, it is downright dangerous and without pre-briefed
ROE proves nothing.

Not that I'm trying to condone it, but it did occur in one of the low flying
areas, where such bouncing happens all the time. The rumour round work was
that the F15s (and we were told by the Typhoon pilot they were e's) had been
following on previous sorties, and and made a bit of radio contact, leading
to the 'incident' in question.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:53:39 GMT, Scott Ferrin
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:28:40 -0700, Ed Rasimus

There's no point in doing it. It doesn't meet any training objectives,
it isn't controlled, it is downright dangerous and without pre-briefed
ROE proves nothing.


Not to mention if you bust something while doing it you might be in
hot water? :-)

Actually, for most operating area around Great Britain, it would be
COLD water--very cold water.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Not to mention if you bust something while doing it you might be in
hot water? :-)


I think "hot water" is an understatement.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:53:07 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message
news

Well, keep hoping. You really ought to get your burning hatred of the
F-22 checked out by a mental health professional. You're FAR over the
line into raving obsession.

Celebration, Scotty.

You were wrong all along.

Maybe you'll prove it by posting some pictures of those strakes.

Why?

With you batting zero here at ram, you lack the credibility to even question
me.



LOL The doc needs to change your meds. Either that or you need to
put down the crack pipe.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:57:58 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:36:33 +1100, John Cook
wrote:

Hi all


Just saw this and it peaked my interest..

You mean "piqued", but I digress.

I guess your right, but my interest was 'peaked' as well:-).


"The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the
scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome
when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and
experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did
not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the
F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full
afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.

---rest of drivel snipped---

First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a
"first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around
learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud
Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably
quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and
engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and
"ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...."

You've described a violation of training and safety regulations.
You've described a WVR engagement and don't acknowledge that the
standard Eagle tactics would have been to long range radar shoot in
the face, then intermediate range IR shoot in the face, then blast
through with guns if the kill was not complete.

The Eurofighters wouldn't have engaged in a turn/burn WVR engagement
and the Eagles would not have been in a "fighting wing" or closer
formation so that the Eurofighters could "comfortably gun" the
trailing one.

In other words, the entire report is pathetically bogus and written by
someone without the first clue of air/air engagement or training.

The comments are reportedly from Archie Neill (One of the BAE pilots
who instructs the Case White RAF pilots)

"PS Shot the sh*t out of a couple of F15s yesterday. Our first
formation teach sortie (2 ship). Battle formation, 1nm Northwest of
Windermere, bounced from the 8 o'clock. Two rapid counters and we were
saddled up in their 6, comfortably gunning the trailer, who was in
full burner in wing-rock wondering what happened.

I love this aircraft. Look out world Typhoon is coming!"

Anyone who hears what the F-15 pilots thought, do tell!

See the thread on PPrune here.


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=120595

or here
http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...opic.php?t=827




I'm not demeaning either the Eurofighter or the RAF, but there is no
reasonable conclusion to be drawn from this report regarding
superiority of the one or demise of the other.

Probabley not, but its fun non the less



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:53:07 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message
news

Well, keep hoping. You really ought to get your burning hatred of
the
F-22 checked out by a mental health professional. You're FAR over
the
line into raving obsession.

Celebration, Scotty.

You were wrong all along.

Maybe you'll prove it by posting some pictures of those strakes.

Why?

With you batting zero here at ram, you lack the credibility to even
question
me.

LOL The doc needs to change your meds. Either that or you need to
put down the crack pipe.

Cease your projection, little kook troll.

In article ,
Ed Rasimus writes:
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:53:39 GMT, Scott Ferrin
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:28:40 -0700, Ed Rasimus

There's no point in doing it. It doesn't meet any training objectives,
it isn't controlled, it is downright dangerous and without pre-briefed
ROE proves nothing.


Not to mention if you bust something while doing it you might be in
hot water? :-)

Actually, for most operating area around Great Britain, it would be
COLD water--very cold water.

And, IIRC, they can take it out of your pay, as well.
Let;s see... A Captain makes - munble-froz and a Beagle costs
unguzza-wuuzza carry the 3... That gives you an ETS date of
something like 3006.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster