Jepp vs NOS at PRB

I was training with Jepp charts, and my partner (safety pilot) had NOS, and
we
were attempting the VOR DME (GPS) B approach into Paso Robles. The Jepp
chart shows the procedure turn (when starting at the VOR, not the arc)
starting
at 6 DME from the VOR, while the NOS chart shows it starting outside the 10
DME arc. Anyone know which is "right" or if it even matters? My instructor
didn't
know, and the DE for my checkride today (passed, by the way) said the NOS
was
probably "right" since it was much newer than the Jepp plate. But which is
ATC
expecting me to fly? DE said "fly what YOUR chart says (Jepp), but I'd like
a
more defendable answer.

Screwed it up anyway, as we talked about both the A and B VOR approaches,
and
I ended up with the A approach on the clip, but got cleared for B, so had to
recover
after the fact. Man, will I EVER stop making dumb mistakes?

TIA, Doug

On Tue, 4 May 2004 19:58:29 -0700, "Doug Campbell"
wrote:

I was training with Jepp charts, and my partner (safety pilot) had NOS, and
we
were attempting the VOR DME (GPS) B approach into Paso Robles. The Jepp
chart shows the procedure turn (when starting at the VOR, not the arc)
starting
at 6 DME from the VOR, while the NOS chart shows it starting outside the 10
DME arc. Anyone know which is "right" or if it even matters? My instructor
didn't
know, and the DE for my checkride today (passed, by the way) said the NOS
was
probably "right" since it was much newer than the Jepp plate. But which is
ATC
expecting me to fly? DE said "fly what YOUR chart says (Jepp), but I'd like
a
more defendable answer.

Screwed it up anyway, as we talked about both the A and B VOR approaches,
and
I ended up with the A approach on the clip, but got cleared for B, so had to
recover
after the fact. Man, will I EVER stop making dumb mistakes?

TIA, Doug


Well, I hate to say this, and I may be wrong (being a Jepp chart user), but
I think you, your instructor and the DE are all misinterpreting the NACO
chart.

Nowhere on the chart does it say to start the PT outside the 10 DME. As a
matter of fact, given the plan view restriction to remain within 10 miles
(of ILSIC), if you did not start the PT until the PRB 10 DME, you would
only have 3 miles in which to complete the PT!

The PT barb is shown where it's shown for charting convenience. But where
you start the turn is up to you, and you can start it any place after
ILSIC.

=================================
AIM 5-4-8 a.1. On U.S. Government charts, a barbed arrow indicates the
direction or side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is
made. Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type
procedure turn.

**However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and
rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot.**
==================================

(Emphasis mine)

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 May 2004 19:58:29 -0700, "Doug Campbell"
wrote:


Well, I hate to say this, and I may be wrong (being a Jepp chart user),
but
I think you, your instructor and the DE are all misinterpreting the NACO
chart.

Nowhere on the chart does it say to start the PT outside the 10 DME. As a
matter of fact, given the plan view restriction to remain within 10 miles
(of ILSIC), if you did not start the PT until the PRB 10 DME, you would
only have 3 miles in which to complete the PT!

The PT barb is shown where it's shown for charting convenience. But where
you start the turn is up to you, and you can start it any place after
ILSIC.


What you say is true, of course, Ron, but one does have to keep in mind that
the 3600 ft altitude restriction applies until PT completion and then 1600
ft must be lost getting back to ILSIC. That will take some distance, over 3
nm in a 90 kt spam can at 750 ft/min descent, so not beginning the PT until
past 6 DME (CFIVO) would be a good idea.

Stan

On Wed, 5 May 2004 08:18:48 -0500, "Stan Prevost"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 4 May 2004 19:58:29 -0700, "Doug Campbell"
wrote:


Well, I hate to say this, and I may be wrong (being a Jepp chart user),
but
I think you, your instructor and the DE are all misinterpreting the NACO
chart.

Nowhere on the chart does it say to start the PT outside the 10 DME. As a
matter of fact, given the plan view restriction to remain within 10 miles
(of ILSIC), if you did not start the PT until the PRB 10 DME, you would
only have 3 miles in which to complete the PT!

The PT barb is shown where it's shown for charting convenience. But where
you start the turn is up to you, and you can start it any place after
ILSIC.


What you say is true, of course, Ron, but one does have to keep in mind that
the 3600 ft altitude restriction applies until PT completion and then 1600
ft must be lost getting back to ILSIC. That will take some distance, over 3
nm in a 90 kt spam can at 750 ft/min descent, so not beginning the PT until
past 6 DME (CFIVO) would be a good idea.

Stan


You're correct, and that gets into another issue of how best to fly that
approach. At 3NM and 90K GS one would need to descend 800 fpm. I'd
probably perform a teardrop PT on this approach, and go out far enough to
have a comfortable descent rate, given the winds.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

What you say is true, of course, Ron, but one does have to keep in mind that
the 3600 ft altitude restriction applies until PT completion and then 1600
ft must be lost getting back to ILSIC. That will take some distance, over 3
nm in a 90 kt spam can at 750 ft/min descent, so not beginning the PT until
past 6 DME (CFIVO) would be a good idea.

Stan

This IAP also has a stepdown fix within the procedure turn area (CIFVO).
Criteria permits those as far out as 4 miles from the PT fix, based on the
presumption that no one will roll out of the procedure turn less than 4 miles
from the PT fix inbound.

Nowhere on the chart does it say to start the PT outside the 10 DME. As a
matter of fact, given the plan view restriction to remain within 10 miles
(of ILSIC), if you did not start the PT until the PRB 10 DME, you would
only have 3 miles in which to complete the PT!

That's the way I read it, the important thing is to stay within 10nm
of the IAF (ILSIC). I think technically, you could even start your PT
there, but waiting until CFIVO gives you more time to get settled
inbound and descend, otherwise you'd have shed ~1500' in couple miles.
That's probably why the Jepp chart recommends the 6 DME.

On the other hand, waiting until 10DME can put you out of the
protected airspace even in a Skyhawk if the wind is blowing out of the
west. Note that beyond 10nm the minimum safe altitude for that sector
is then 5000', not the 3600' you may have descended to outbound on the
PT. In fact, there is a 3622' obstacle in the general area you could
end up in if you really extended the PT, looks like.

I agree this looks a little confusing at a glance, they could have
drawn the barb inside the arc, IMHO.

Am I reading this right ?

Martin

Martin Kosina wrote:That's the way I read it, the important thing is to stay
within 10nm

of the IAF (ILSIC). I think technically, you could even start your PT
there....

Think of it as the course reversal fix or the course reversal IAF. It helps
keep it sorted out over the long haul.

On Tue, 4 May 2004 19:58:29 -0700, "Doug Campbell"
wrote:

The Jepp
chart shows the procedure turn (when starting at the VOR, not the arc)
starting
at 6 DME from the VOR, while the NOS chart shows it starting outside the 10
DME arc. Anyone know which is "right" or if it even matters

I don't have the Jepp chart in front of me, but I'd bet that, not only
is Ron correct, but the bunch of you may be misinterpreting the Jepp
chart also.

Looking at the NACO chart
(http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0404/00858VDGB.PDF) and starting from the
VOR, the full approach procedure it shows is to fly a course of 133°
at 5000 msl to ISLSIC (3 DME), the IAF (the only IAF on the chart that
requires a procedure turn. Note that the VOR is =not= an IAF).

Once crossing ILSIC, you may descend to 3600' and begin the procedure
turn - just keep it within 10 NM of ILSIC.

Once PT inbound, if you are more than 6 DME away from the VOR, you may
only continue your descent to 2400' until you reach the 6 DME point
(CFIVO) after which you may continue down to 2000' until ILSIC (the
FAF)

(Ron or other Jepp users, is this what the Jepp chart for the
procedure shows?)

On Wed, 05 May 2004 11:22:16 GMT, Mark Kolber
wrote:

(Ron or other Jepp users, is this what the Jepp chart for the
procedure shows?)

My Jepp service only covers the East so I can't comment on that approach
per Jepp.

But from the way the OP described it, it sounds as if they are making a
fairly common mistake of assuming that the location of the PT symbol on the
plan view has something to do with where you have to start the turn.

If it were one of those "fly as charted" type PT's, it would be a different
story.

I'm surprised that the DE didn't know better.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I'm surprised that the DE didn't know better.

I'm not. Exactly what resources exist which could relieve him of this
misconception once he has acquired it? Zippo.