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Question For Old Naval Aviators



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 26th 07, 01:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
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Posts: 39
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:33:46 GMT, "Flashnews"
wrote:

remember this was an "inport" thing not regular ops and the mission was a
bag of mail and flight time for the AirBoss and prifly crew


The "smoking hole" (or big "SPLASH") is no respecter of status! :-)

we also did many crazy things like no-flap takeoffs with the clean Phantoms
(Ed must have done these more then I but we had true hard wings with the
B/N/J's) just because it enabled a better and tighter section takeoff and at
El Toro or Miramar you could launch two sections on the duals and be
airborne & joined with four in nothing flat - but loaded for a real war,
that would not happen; now the F-8 guys who would launch with their wings
folded - that took balls (no just kidding)


Taking off with wings folded IS considered bad form (even for F-8
guys)! ;-)

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão
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  #22  
Old February 27th 07, 05:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
qui si parla Campagnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

On Feb 25, 5:22 pm, "Flashnews" wrote:
I am thinking about this really hard - and my failing memory still remembers
being so amazed at a full stop landing without a hook and there was wind
over the deck - perhaps that was the deciding factor for hook / no-hook.
Now we also anchored at Kithira where the wind was always 30 to 40 knots
over the deck and we could cycle fighters all day without steaming and fly
clean for ACM missions over the ship. Again the CAG (CVW-17 1982-83) was
very innovative and we did a lot of fun things with squadrons that were
almost 80% TOPGUN graduates (VMFA-531 and VF-11). The COD rides were just
something to try as with the helicopters, A-5's, and A-6's. I also remember
coming over the ramp at around 90 knots - does that sound right


I was on the Indy just before that period and there was NO WAY an F-4
could 'flanchor', not enough wind to shoot the thing while anchored,
and with a max engaging speed of(geeez, don't remember) but the wind
would have to be screaming to land an F-4 at anchor. . Only A/C I ever
saw fly at anchorwere S-3s.

BTW-80% Topgun grads? I don't think so. With each squadron getting
maybe 2 pilot slots per year....besides, Topgun doesn't necessarily
make you good around the boat.

wrote in message

...

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:02:45 -0600, Charlie Wolf
wrote:


Bill -


I was just an enlisted back seater but...


"deck landings" without arresting wires were non-existent, but as I
said, they were possible with enough wind over the deck.


The "Book" agrees. If you have 35-40 kts. of head wind it's possible
on a CVA. Sounds like a "high pucker factor" operation, though.


Deck runs (takeoffs) were extremely common place. with moderate wind
over the deck on a deck like Enterprise or Ranger, C-1's could take
off on the angle fully loaded - with no cat. (And no problem)


We deck ran in TS-2A/B/C during CARQUALS at VT-28 aboard INDEPENDANCE.
No big deal.


I don't recall max takeoff weight. One thing to consider also -- our
runs to Da Nang were relatively short. we rarely took on fuel on the
boat.


I was hoping somebody had a C-1 NATOPS. So far "no joy." :-)


Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  #23  
Old February 27th 07, 08:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
R Leonard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

I can think of at least one F2H from VF-171 going off without benefit
of a catapult. Gent's not around anymore to ask about particulars,
but as I recall the story, for some reason they were unable to
catapult the Banshee. So in order to get the thing ashore, the brain
trust worked the math and decided it could be done, though a trifle
unusual. So the CO climbed in, ran it up, and away he went. This was
circa 1949 (I'll have to try to find it in the log book) and obviously
it worked as he lived to be 89 and passed on in 2005.

Rich


  #24  
Old March 1st 07, 05:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
theref
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Posts: 7
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators


"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 25, 5:22 pm, "Flashnews" wrote:
I am thinking about this really hard - and my failing memory still
remembers
being so amazed at a full stop landing without a hook and there was wind
over the deck - perhaps that was the deciding factor for hook / no-hook.
Now we also anchored at Kithira where the wind was always 30 to 40 knots
over the deck and we could cycle fighters all day without steaming and fly
clean for ACM missions over the ship. Again the CAG (CVW-17 1982-83) was
very innovative and we did a lot of fun things with squadrons that were
almost 80% TOPGUN graduates (VMFA-531 and VF-11). The COD rides were just
something to try as with the helicopters, A-5's, and A-6's. I also
remember
coming over the ramp at around 90 knots - does that sound right


I was on the Indy just before that period and there was NO WAY an F-4
could 'flanchor', not enough wind to shoot the thing while anchored,
and with a max engaging speed of(geeez, don't remember) but the wind
would have to be screaming to land an F-4 at anchor. . Only A/C I ever
saw fly at anchorwere S-3s.

BTW-80% Topgun grads? I don't think so. With each squadron getting
maybe 2 pilot slots per year....besides, Topgun doesn't necessarily
make you good around the boat.

wrote in message

...

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:02:45 -0600, Charlie Wolf
wrote:


Bill -


I was just an enlisted back seater but...


"deck landings" without arresting wires were non-existent, but as I
said, they were possible with enough wind over the deck.


The "Book" agrees. If you have 35-40 kts. of head wind it's possible
on a CVA. Sounds like a "high pucker factor" operation, though.


Deck runs (takeoffs) were extremely common place. with moderate wind
over the deck on a deck like Enterprise or Ranger, C-1's could take
off on the angle fully loaded - with no cat. (And no problem)


We deck ran in TS-2A/B/C during CARQUALS at VT-28 aboard INDEPENDANCE.
No big deal.


I don't recall max takeoff weight. One thing to consider also -- our
runs to Da Nang were relatively short. we rarely took on fuel on the
boat.


I was hoping somebody had a C-1 NATOPS. So far "no joy." :-)


Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



Au contraire, mon ami. The Saratoga launched many (10 for the first launch
sequence) aircraft while at anchor off Piraeus in August 1971. Carrier was
bow on to the Acropolis up on the hill. I was there in VF103. See ADM Paul
Gilchrist's book "Feet Wet" for a complete description. He was CAG at the
time. The ship took on a lot of water in the #3 Main Machinery Room and was
listing badly. After pumping out a lot of water they needed to launch
aircraft to lighten the load and redistribute the load.


  #25  
Old March 1st 07, 11:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
qui si parla Campagnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

On Feb 28, 9:02 pm, "theref" wrote:
"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in ooglegroups.com...
On Feb 25, 5:22 pm, "Flashnews" wrote:

I am thinking about this really hard - and my failing memory still
remembers
being so amazed at a full stop landing without a hook and there was wind
over the deck - perhaps that was the deciding factor for hook / no-hook.
Now we also anchored at Kithira where the wind was always 30 to 40 knots
over the deck and we could cycle fighters all day without steaming and fly
clean for ACM missions over the ship. Again the CAG (CVW-17 1982-83) was
very innovative and we did a lot of fun things with squadrons that were
almost 80% TOPGUN graduates (VMFA-531 and VF-11). The COD rides were just
something to try as with the helicopters, A-5's, and A-6's. I also
remember
coming over the ramp at around 90 knots - does that sound right


I was on the Indy just before that period and there was NO WAY an F-4
could 'flanchor', not enough wind to shoot the thing while anchored,
and with a max engaging speed of(geeez, don't remember) but the wind
would have to be screaming to land an F-4 at anchor. . Only A/C I ever
saw fly at anchorwere S-3s.

BTW-80% Topgun grads? I don't think so. With each squadron getting
maybe 2 pilot slots per year....besides, Topgun doesn't necessarily
make you good around the boat.





wrote in message


.. .


On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:02:45 -0600, Charlie Wolf
wrote:


Bill -


I was just an enlisted back seater but...


"deck landings" without arresting wires were non-existent, but as I
said, they were possible with enough wind over the deck.


The "Book" agrees. If you have 35-40 kts. of head wind it's possible
on a CVA. Sounds like a "high pucker factor" operation, though.


Deck runs (takeoffs) were extremely common place. with moderate wind
over the deck on a deck like Enterprise or Ranger, C-1's could take
off on the angle fully loaded - with no cat. (And no problem)


We deck ran in TS-2A/B/C during CARQUALS at VT-28 aboard INDEPENDANCE.
No big deal.


I don't recall max takeoff weight. One thing to consider also -- our
runs to Da Nang were relatively short. we rarely took on fuel on the
boat.


I was hoping somebody had a C-1 NATOPS. So far "no joy." :-)


Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


Au contraire, mon ami. The Saratoga launched many (10 for the first launch
sequence) aircraft while at anchor off Piraeus in August 1971. Carrier was
bow on to the Acropolis up on the hill. I was there in VF103. See ADM Paul
Gilchrist's book "Feet Wet" for a complete description. He was CAG at the
time. The ship took on a lot of water in the #3 Main Machinery Room and was
listing badly. After pumping out a lot of water they needed to launch
aircraft to lighten the load and redistribute the load.


Well, shuck my corn..heard of the Sara 'sinkex', but never heard they
shot Phantoms at anchor. They must have been very light and it must've
been quite a shot.

  #26  
Old March 2nd 07, 05:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
Mike Weeks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

On Feb 23, 4:27�pm, "Mike Weeks" wrote:
On Feb 21, 10:16?am, "W. D. Allen" wrote:

Just finished Jim Armstrong's book, "From POW to Blue Angel", about
Commander Dusty Rhodes, who introduced the Blue Angels to jets. Interesting
book, especially for old naval aviators.


But, here's a question for tail hookers of half a century ago. On page 282
Armstrong writes, "...a Twin Beech landed [on the USS Philippine Sea
returning to CONUS from Korea in early 1951] with a welcome COD load....."
I'm guessing he is referring to an SNB. Does anyone know if SNBs were ever
used for COD deliveries on carriers in the early 1950s? If so, were they
reinforced for tailhook landings? I know a C-130 has been landed on a Kitty
Hawk class carrier, but doubt an SNB could be make sturdy enough to do the
same.


Looking forward to some answers from those who know.


As written the passage brings up even more questions:

CV-47 PS didn't return to the US "in early 1951". *Early in '51 she
operating off Korea, first w/ CVG-11, then in late March swapped -11
for CVG-2, and she doesn't get back to the WC until June 1951.

If the time period should simply be, say, mid-'51 there's still the
question of a straight deck and those air group birds sitting forward,
even behind the barrier. *Even if a good number planes were off-loaded
as Atsugi for use by an incoming CVG, there still would have been the
loading of others to be returned to the states. *Going to put a non-
hook bird down on a deck w/ no exit point?

And where would the event have taken place -- off Hawaii, off Guam?
According the Bob Cressman article in the Fall '88 issue of _The
Hook_, in a history of the P.S., she made a bee-line straight to
Alameda, beating the transit record of Boxer (CV-21) from 1950 by 5
1/2 hours.

I haven't seen the book yet, but looking forward to at least looking a
copy over. *In addition I'm going to check if there's a copy of a PS
1950-51 cruise book in the THA library next week.


Indeed, the THA has a copy of the 1950-51 PS cruise book. Nothing
mentioned about what was described in the book about Dusty Rhodes.
That doesn't mean much by itself, but there is a good aerial photo of
her entering SF Bay on 9 June 1951 and she's got about a 1/2 deck-full
load of birds, and there's no plane with a twin tail among them.

In addition, the book is reviewed (favorably) in the current issue
(Jan-Feb) of NavAir News by Pete Mersky and it's mentioned there are
"only a few errors in terminology" The author is a professor of
English.

MW

  #27  
Old March 4th 07, 09:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

Accch! m'poor bairns... I'll give y'warp factor eight and maybe a wee
bit more.

Mikey,

How close d'ya think I am to getting my multiple IRS CID pizza
delivery rewards, laddie?

Stay tuned, laddie

I'll have that e-mail account fashioned for you real soon which will
direct you to a private yahoo!group.

The Ambassador for the Government of Israel(by you proxying the
message on my behalf), the Chief of Squad 3 of the Cleveland, Ohio
FBI, his top agent in Squad 3, Mike Vahue, Gregory A White, the US
Attorney for the Judicial District of Northern Ohio and two others
from law enforcement will be the only members of the yahoo!group.

Mikey...Once again, Mr. Spock is doon on the planet's surfce w'Captain
Kirk...

One more try at the Gaelic Mind Meld, laddie????

No??


TO THE AMBASSADOR OF ISRAEL.

Your excellency.

Just like Bruno Tataglia's son had to excuse himself in front of
Hollywood Actor, Sterling Hayden , for needing to talk "italian to
michael correleone"-- I need to excuse myself to talk "faux gaelic to
Mikey".

Accchhh! y'daft beastie...are y'deef as well as dumb?...do y'no ken
what I'm talking to you aboot,laddie?

Nooohh, Mikey... Of course, I believe your a traitor to the US Flag...
but the danger to the possible collection of m'multiple IRS CID Pizza
Delivery rewards is if those above you attempt to marginalize your
presence/participation once you forward the message.

Who knows more aboot these 34 murders than you, correct m'wee bairn?

While some of your superiors who know less may "pooh pooh" the
suggestions and say,"Oh...whoopy! Scotty couldna' even get "manual
override" t'work in even ONE episode of Star Trek... how is he ever
going to be able t'compel us to surrender before the Chief of Squad 3
of the Cleveland, Ohio FBI?"

That's why they need YOU, Mikey... Uncle Sam doesna' need YOU, Mikey
nearly as much as your evil Israeli overlords do!

Noohhh ..there isna' any BEST OPTION...

...there can only be a "least worst option" for the GOI....


...and that will be to hope US Attorney White accepts my plan; details
of which will be enumerated in that Yahoo!Group--- I told y'that I
wouldna' ask anybody t'buy a "pig in a poke", did I no?





 




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