If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
"Teacherjh" wrote in message ... You don't await IFR clearance sitting on the runway. I don't care what kind of airplane you are, or why you diverted. When waiting for an IFR clearance, you stay off the runway. At a controlled field you wait where ATC tells you to wait. |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
At a controlled field you wait where ATC tells you to wait.
I suppose, but what right-minded controller would plant a 737 on a runway to wait for an IFR clearance? In my mind, an ex-controller, or a =very= unusual circumstance. Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
|
#24
|
|||
|
|||
"Don Tuite" wrote in message
... I dunno. A jetport in the Azores probably *is* an unusual place. I wonder what the daily traffic volume is. To go back to the original crash - at the time the airport was littered with large airliners because the weather in Europe was horrible and they'd all landed there to wait it out. So they were back-taxing aircraft on the active runway because the taxi-ways were full. It was an unusual day at that airport, it became infamous! Mat -- Matthew Waugh Comm. SEL MEL, CFI-AI http://home.nc.rr.com/mwaugh/learn2fly/index.htm |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1069786900.839440@sj-nntpcache-3... Actually there are some changes as a result of Tenerife. For example in the UK the word "cleared" is used only in "cleared for takeoff". Other uses (e.g. for taxi) use some other word, "permission" iirc. That's not quite the case, though you're on the right lines. In the UK (and in other states that adhere to ICAO phraseology) the words *"take-off"* are only used as part of a clearance to take off. Prior to that the word "departure" is used: ATC: "G-ABCD after departure turn left heading ya de ya de ya... " (might include an IFR clearance) Aircraft:"After departure turn left heading ya de ya de ya... G-ABCD" .... Aircraft: "G-ABCD ready for departure" ATC: "G-ABCD cleared for take-off" Aircraft: "Cleared for take-off, G-ABCD" You're correct that there's no "clearance" to taxi but I think that's the same everywhere. So there's no problem with reading an IFR clearance, since there's no taboo on "clearance" or "cleared". The issue identified at Tenerife was, to borrow Ron's transcript, not the CLEARED, but the TAKE-OFF KLM: KLM 4805 is now ready for takeoff, and we're waiting for our ATC clearance. TWR: KLM 8705 you are cleared to the papa beacon climb to and maintain flight level 290 right turn after TAKE-OFF proceed with heading 040 until intercepting the 305 radial from Las Palmas VOR. KLM: Roger sir, we're cleared to the Papa Beacon flight level 90, right turn out 050 until intercepting the 305 and we're now at TAKE-OFF . TWR: OK. Stand by for take-off, I will call you. PAN: We're still taxiing down the runway, Clipper 1736 As well as the potential confusion over the tower's use of "take-off" in the clearance (which was at the time perfectly acceptable practice, BTW), the second use of the words by the crew would or should ring alarm bells in a UK ATCO's mind as to whether the aircraft had properly understood that they were to hold. Evidently if raised some doubt in the tower controller's mind, but not enough for him to demand an acknowledgement. Julian Scarfe |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Matthew Waugh wrote:
"Don Tuite" wrote in message ... I dunno. A jetport in the Azores probably *is* an unusual place. I wonder what the daily traffic volume is. To go back to the original crash - at the time the airport was littered with large airliners because the weather in Europe was horrible and they'd all landed there to wait it out. So they were back-taxing aircraft on the active runway because the taxi-ways were full. It was an unusual day at that airport, it became infamous! Don't know about the weather in Europe, but it was certainly bad in the Canaries with fog and low-lying clouds creating very poor visibility. The intended airport in the islands for both flights was at Las Palmas, but that airport had closed due to a bomb explosion at the terminal and claims of a second bomb. As a result the involved planes and others were diverted to Tenerife resulting in very crowded conditions at the airport there - and, as stated, using the active runway for back-taxiing. The accident occurred after Las Palmas reopened and the planes diverted to Tenerife were being sent back there. Definitely an unusual day. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
"Teacherjh" wrote in message ... I suppose, but what right-minded controller would plant a 737 on a runway to wait for an IFR clearance? In my mind, an ex-controller, or a =very= unusual circumstance. It was a 747. The controller didn't plant him on the runway so that he could wait for an IFR clearance, he was taxiing for takeoff while the clearance was on request. Nor did he wait on the runway for his IFR clearance, he was issued the IFR clearance and still had to wait for the runway to become available for his takeoff. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Nor did he wait on the runway for his IFR clearance, he was issued the IFR clearance and still had to wait for the runway to become available for his takeoff. Ok, I thought he got his IFR clearance while in position... implying he was on the runway without an IFR clearance at least for some point. Jos -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
"Teacherjh" wrote in message ... Ok, I thought he got his IFR clearance while in position... implying he was on the runway without an IFR clearance at least for some point. He did get his IFR clearance while on the runway, but that did not delay his departure. Being on the runway without an IFR clearance is not a problem. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Being on the runway without an IFR clearance is not a problem.
.... unless you can't take off without an IFR clearance, and there's incoming. But I suppose the controller would take care of that when it happened. It just seems that the end of the runway is a bad place to be unless you're ready to go. Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
AOPA Stall/Spin Study -- Stowell's Review (8,000 words) | Rich Stowell | Aerobatics | 28 | January 2nd 09 02:26 PM |
Associate Publisher Wanted - Aviation & Business Journals | Mergatroide | Aviation Marketplace | 1 | January 13th 04 08:26 PM |
Associate Publisher Wanted - Aviation & Business Journals | Mergatroide | General Aviation | 1 | January 13th 04 08:26 PM |
MSNBC Reporting on GA Security Threat | Scott Schluer | Piloting | 44 | November 23rd 03 02:50 AM |
AOPA Stall/Spin Study -- Stowell's Review (8,000 words) | Rich Stowell | Piloting | 25 | September 11th 03 01:27 PM |