Germany Lost the War... So What?

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


I could only wish that the political decision to change direction
eastward would have never come and Sea Lion would have happened. What
would have Britain defended itself with then- the Home Guard with
pitch forks and shotguns? You should thank God a lone German bomber
ditched its bombs on London and saved your nation. Germany could have
kept fighting and by the winter of 1940 you would have ran out of
pilots and planes- had the Germans not diverted to civilian targets
like London.


You really are ignorant of the situation in 1940 arent you.

The simple reality is that by the end of August 1940 the RAF were STRONGER
than at the beginning of the BOB. Quite simply they were building aircraft
and training pilots faster than the luftwaffe and more than replacing their
losses. Dowdings idea of readiness meant that each squadron should have
15 operational arcraft and twice that number of pilots. There were aircraft
to spare and while the pilot situation was tighter there were still around
20 piots per squadron

Conversely when Milch surveyed the Luftwaffe front line units at the
same time he found that most Luftwaffe units were between 25 and 30%
under strength. It was the Luftwaffe that was losing the battle of
attrition.
The Ju-87's had already been withdrawn and the Me-110's were now
having to be escorted by 109's

As for Sealion that would have been one of the biggest disasters
of German arms

Setting aside the fact that Britain had 13 combat ready divisions
available in the SE of England there's the little matter of the
Royal Navy. The Kriegsmarine could field 1 BB, 1 CA and 10 Destroyers
The RN had available 5 BB's , 11 Cruisers and 76 Destroyers.

Then of course the RAF has several hundred bomber
tasked with repelling the invasion ready for action

The Invasion fleet consisted of Rhine barges towed at 4 knots
that would have taken 30 hours to make the crossing and would
sink in anything much more than flat calm. They of course had no
LCT's so there chosen method of moving heavy weapons
was to blow off the bows of the barge with HE.

Meanwhile the defences of the target chose, Dover , consisted
of heavy coastal artillery (14",9.2" 8" and 6" guns) augmented by
Army artillery units firing from gun pits behind the town and
in and around it were 2 divisions of the Territorial army,
1 Indian Brigade, 1 New Zealan Division, 1 Armoured division
equipped with Matilda II tanks that were impervious to anything
short of an 88, 1 Canadian division and a further armoured brigde

Can you say glug - glug

Keith

In article ,
Keith Willshaw wrote:
equipped with Matilda II tanks that were impervious to anything
short of an 88, 1 Canadian division and a further armoured brigde

And unless they captured a port intact and could hold it then the
germans had no way of getting an 88 across the channel. And as they
had no way of holding the navy back (the luftwaffe couldn't even stop
the RN lifting troops off a beach at Dunkirk, so if they couldn;t
hit *stationary* ships often enough then they certainly wouldn't
stop destroyers carving into the invasion barges at 30+ knots,
nor the sloops from pouring 100+ shells a minute at the barges.
Oggle oggle.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


I could only wish that the political decision to change direction
eastward would have never come and Sea Lion would have happened. What
would have Britain defended itself with then- the Home Guard with
pitch forks and shotguns? You should thank God a lone German bomber
ditched its bombs on London and saved your nation. Germany could have
kept fighting and by the winter of 1940 you would have ran out of
pilots and planes- had the Germans not diverted to civilian targets
like London.


You really are ignorant of the situation in 1940 arent you.

The simple reality is that by the end of August 1940 the RAF were STRONGER
than at the beginning of the BOB. Quite simply they were building aircraft
and training pilots faster than the luftwaffe and more than replacing their
losses. Dowdings idea of readiness meant that each squadron should have
15 operational arcraft and twice that number of pilots. There were aircraft
to spare and while the pilot situation was tighter there were still around
20 piots per squadron

Conversely when Milch surveyed the Luftwaffe front line units at the
same time he found that most Luftwaffe units were between 25 and 30%
under strength. It was the Luftwaffe that was losing the battle of
attrition.
The Ju-87's had already been withdrawn and the Me-110's were now
having to be escorted by 109's

As for Sealion that would have been one of the biggest disasters
of German arms

Setting aside the fact that Britain had 13 combat ready divisions
available in the SE of England there's the little matter of the
Royal Navy. The Kriegsmarine could field 1 BB, 1 CA and 10 Destroyers
The RN had available 5 BB's , 11 Cruisers and 76 Destroyers.

Then of course the RAF has several hundred bomber
tasked with repelling the invasion ready for action

The Invasion fleet consisted of Rhine barges towed at 4 knots
that would have taken 30 hours to make the crossing and would
sink in anything much more than flat calm. They of course had no
LCT's so there chosen method of moving heavy weapons
was to blow off the bows of the barge with HE.

Meanwhile the defences of the target chose, Dover , consisted
of heavy coastal artillery (14",9.2" 8" and 6" guns) augmented by
Army artillery units firing from gun pits behind the town and
in and around it were 2 divisions of the Territorial army,
1 Indian Brigade, 1 New Zealan Division, 1 Armoured division
equipped with Matilda II tanks that were impervious to anything
short of an 88, 1 Canadian division and a further armoured brigde

I had a brother-in-law who was commanding a battery of 105mm howitzers
during the battle of France and he had a younger brother who was an
infantry officer in the same campaign (later killed during the Battle
of the Bulge). Their letters home, which we still have, are quite
revealing.

The battery ended up somewhere in the Amiens area where they had to
prepare and train for Sealion. The brother was near Rouen basically
doing the same thing. At that time the motorised element of the
battery was one motor car and a field ambulance. Everything else was
horsedrawn. They were totally unprepared and untrained for an
invasion and equipment for such an enterprise was not forthcoming,
perhaps because it did not exist in Germany at the time(?). The
professional officers, at least at his level, considered the whole
idea crazy and suicidal. And no amount of national socialist ardour
and chivvying seemed to change that attitude. When Sealion was
abandoned the sense of relief in the letters home is palpable. Its
the relief of professional soldiers when a madcap scheme is finally
ditched as reason begins to prevail.

Eugene

Keith Willshaw wrote:
Then there's the little matter of the fall of communism, the
dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the USSR

robert arndt wrote:
Which is more due to Soviet citizens standing in line for bread 8 hrs
a day and the forever unattainable 5 year plans they made... not to
mention devoting almost all their resources to defense and the

Multiple problems all devolving from the same cause... and why
exactly did they do this?

C'mon, I know you can say it, even if it galls you.

"The West."

There, was that so hard?


The war aims of protecting the Kosovans from Serbian ethnic cleansing
were achieved

Oh please, too little too late. Serb soldiers insulted International
forces as they left Kosovo and threatened ethnic minorities right in
front the peacekeepers.

Killing pathetic bullies may feel good, but when is it right to
pull the trigger? The only reason the Serbs acted this way
was because they knew they were safe doing it.

Killing someone over an insult is the sort of the thing your
favorite SS boys did. look where it got 'em.


A US Naval warship which should have been adequately protected. Taken
out by a raft of explosives.

You'd have our guys shoot any boat which nears one of our
ships? You must not own a pleasure boat!

By your lights you'd have us kill every living thing in
Afghanstan and Iraq, I guess, just to be sure we got the
Bad Guys (tm).

Or do you have a (realistic) better idea?


Oh thank God for British token forces whose own weapons and gear are
****. I assume you're British, so don't you read your own papers for
God-save-the-Queen sakes!!! All you guys did was sit in the rear and
deliver humanitarian aid while the US drove downtown to Baghdad.

Gag. Bet you wouldn't have the balls to say that to a guy who was
there.



Jeff

By your lights you'd have us kill every living thing in
Afghanstan and Iraq, I guess, just to be sure we got the
Bad Guys (tm).

Or do you have a (realistic) better idea?


Arn't would deploy the 61th SS "Snowballfight" Panzer Div, which would mop up
the entire mid-east in 48 hours.

On 19 Feb 2004 20:54:27 GMT, nt (Krztalizer) wrote:

By your lights you'd have us kill every living thing in
Afghanstan and Iraq, I guess, just to be sure we got the
Bad Guys (tm).

Or do you have a (realistic) better idea?

Arn't would deploy the 61th SS "Snowballfight" Panzer Div, which would mop up
the entire mid-east in 48 hours.

Only after 69th SS Panzer Division "Goldenboy", 19th SS
Panzergrenadier Division "Funboy" and 99th SS Panzergrenadier Division
"Leatherboy", who would conquer Afghanistan after they finished making
those homo-erotic films of themselves playing volleyball naked with
all those Hitler Youth or marching around in creaking black leather
whipping the untermenschen with an array of S&M gear.

Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Fuhrer!

Gavin Bailey

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.


So,US nuclear tipped missilles were also withdrawn as the USSR demanded.
Correct?

The British troops who took Southern Iraq and Basra tend to disagree
about the going it alone bit.

Honestly I admire British "Great Game" playing skills.
They returned to South iraqi oil fields using US card and I am also pretty sure
they will return to northern oil fields by using EU card in near future.
Texan or Alabamian nativity is not a very good credential when it comes to
playing "The Great Game" with the Brits.

Iraq started GW1 with the 4th largest army in the world and
a large AF and air defence system, of course when it was over ....


With US encouragement of course.
Iraq had to start GW1 so that US could start with the implementation of
Kissingers plan called "Seizing Arab Oil
".Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined
and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

You seem to forget that the British Empire in 1939 stretched from N.America to
Africa,from Europa to Mideast,From Subcontinent to the down under.
Can you give us an idea about the Human and natural resources controlled by
British Crown in 1939?
Actually I thing the Brits had the finest fighting force Germans faced during
WWII,

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.


So,US nuclear tipped missilles were also withdrawn as the USSR demanded.
Correct?


Indeed but they were due for removal within 12 months
in any event. There's little doubt that Khruschev lost a great
deal of prestige over the Cuban missile affair and his
position was weakened.

Kenedy came out of the affair rather better.

The British troops who took Southern Iraq and Basra tend to disagree
about the going it alone bit.

Honestly I admire British "Great Game" playing skills.
They returned to South iraqi oil fields using US card and I am also pretty
sure
they will return to northern oil fields by using EU card in near future.
Texan or Alabamian nativity is not a very good credential when it comes to
playing "The Great Game" with the Brits.

Iraq started GW1 with the 4th largest army in the world and
a large AF and air defence system, of course when it was over ....


With US encouragement of course.

Nope, the Iraqi government assure everyone including the Arab league
and the US government that it would not actually invade Kuwait.
Its worth noting that the Kuwaitis dont believe this piece
of nonsense.


Iraq had to start GW1 so that US could start with the implementation of
Kissingers plan called "Seizing Arab Oil

Kissinger wasnt in the administration

".Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined
and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

You seem to forget that the British Empire in 1939 stretched from
N.America to
Africa,from Europa to Mideast,From Subcontinent to the down under.
Can you give us an idea about the Human and natural resources controlled
by
British Crown in 1939?

You seem to forget that Australia, Canada and New Zealand were already
indpendent in 1939 and that India was already moving in that direction
with elected bodies already being responsible for everything except defence
and foreign policy. Full independence was planned for around 1948, more
or less when it actually happened

Actually I thing the Brits had the finest fighting force Germans faced
during
WWII,


In fact as any British soldier who ever served with them will tell
you the best light infantry to be found were the Ghurka's who
come from Nepal, which was never part of the Empire.

Keith

Kissinger wasnt in the administration

You dont need to be in administration,administrations execute the plans and
Kissingers plan known as "Seizing Arab Oil" appeared first in 1975.

Current caretakers of Kissingers plan are also known as "Straussians" but
Mr.Strauss himself was never been a part of any administration.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Kissinger wasnt in the administration

You dont need to be in administration,administrations execute the plans
and
Kissingers plan known as "Seizing Arab Oil" appeared first in 1975.

Current caretakers of Kissingers plan are also known as "Straussians" but
Mr.Strauss himself was never been a part of any administration.

There's no need to seize it, the Arabs will sell it anyway or starve.

Keith