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Obsolete weapons



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 24th 04, 03:30 AM
Marc Reeve
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John Keeney wrote:
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...

In message , Scott
MacEachern writes

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
. ..


Personal beneificiary of this, since we got a truckload of 84mm rounds
and sort-of-orders not to return any...

How's your hearing now, anyway?


Poor.

Probably more to do with too many 7.62mm blank and occasional
thunderflashes indoors with no hearing protection, than with a few 84mm
rounds fired while wearing ear defenders over ear plugs.

(Not sure if hearing protection is now mandated for FIBUA/MOUT, but that
could get _loud_ in a hurry)



I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think of firing
inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls &
floors).
I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week
in just those circumstances.
The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges,
SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you
did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your
ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor".
All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come.


Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a couple
thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices involving up to a pound
and a half of flash powder) over the years, without hearing protectors. I can't
imagine doing MOUT without any form of ear guards...

--
Marc Reeve
Some guy at a desk somewhere ^reverse^ for email
  #12  
Old August 24th 04, 06:00 AM
Krztalizer
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I can't
imagine doing MOUT without any form of ear guards...


huh? What did he say? What?

Gordon
2,000 helo flight hours -- nuf said about hearing loss! :\
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

  #13  
Old August 24th 04, 08:30 AM
John Keeney
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"Marc Reeve" wrote in message
...
John Keeney wrote:
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...

(Not sure if hearing protection is now mandated for FIBUA/MOUT, but that
could get _loud_ in a hurry)


I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think of

firing
inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls &
floors).
I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week
in just those circumstances.
The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching

charges,
SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you
did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your
ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor".
All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to

come.

Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a

couple
thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices involving up to a

pound
and a half of flash powder) over the years, without hearing protectors. I

can't
imagine doing MOUT without any form of ear guards...


Mine are in. Seems some units consider them an option that they
hope they won't exercise: the tactical clues from unplugged ears
being more important to their lives than good hearing down the road.


  #14  
Old August 24th 04, 11:02 AM
Paul J. Adam
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In message , Marc Reeve
writes
John Keeney wrote:
I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think
of firing
inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls &
floors).
I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week
in just those circumstances.
The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges,
SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you
did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your
ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor".
All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come.

Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a
couple thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices
involving up to a pound and a half of flash powder) over the years,
without hearing protectors. I can't imagine doing MOUT without any form
of ear guards...


Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in
FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a
lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands
from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place.
So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to
keep control of your fireteam during the action.

(You might be able to wear earplugs under Personal Role Radio, though.)

Not sure if that's still policy today - the fact that we were firing
7.62mm should date my experience


Important rule of why you don't over-divide your forces: a keen platoon
commander, very freshly minted, decided that our fireteam should
simultaneously clear upper and lower floors of a house in Imber. So, we
cover as two go up the assault ladder, then myself and my buddy go in to
clear the ground floor. (You can already see where this one's going,
can't you?)

Right up to the point where I see movement and a weapon up the stairs,
snap off a couple of rounds and shout "Potts! Enemy, top of stairs!"...
as shots ring out from the top of the stairs along with a yell of "Emu!
Enemy, stairs!"

Pause. Curse volubly and imaginatively. Express gratitude to $DEITY of
choice that this is a training exercise and we were only using blank
rounds for our blue-on-blue. Explain events to Pl Comd and advise an
all-or-nothing approach: suggesting that next time, entry team goes in
upstairs and the other pair content themselves with covering the exits.
Suggestion accepted, experience promulgated.

Hopefully, having made or seen made the mistake in training, it will be
avoided in reality... there are so many new and exciting ways to cock
up, why repeat old ones?

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
  #15  
Old August 24th 04, 09:39 PM
Jake McGuire
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"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ...
Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in
FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a
lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands
from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place.
So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to
keep control of your fireteam during the action.


I wonder how much earplugs actually hurt communication in OUBA.

I know that on my motorcycle, while wearing earplugs under my helmet
means I can't hear subtle changes in engine noise, if I don't have
them in I'm noticeably more fatigued and less alert after as little as
15 minutes. I could easily imagine that the slight decrease in
hearing on average could be outweighed by the large increase in
hearing during the five seconds after shots being fired.

-jake
  #16  
Old August 24th 04, 09:58 PM
Guy Alcala
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

In message , Marc Reeve
writes
John Keeney wrote:
I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think
of firing
inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls &
floors).
I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week
in just those circumstances.
The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges,
SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you
did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your
ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor".
All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come.

Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a
couple thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices
involving up to a pound and a half of flash powder) over the years,
without hearing protectors. I can't imagine doing MOUT without any form
of ear guards...


Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in
FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a
lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands
from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place.
So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to
keep control of your fireteam during the action.

(You might be able to wear earplugs under Personal Role Radio, though.)

Not sure if that's still policy today - the fact that we were firing
7.62mm should date my experience

Important rule of why you don't over-divide your forces: a keen platoon
commander, very freshly minted, decided that our fireteam should
simultaneously clear upper and lower floors of a house in Imber. So, we
cover as two go up the assault ladder, then myself and my buddy go in to
clear the ground floor. (You can already see where this one's going,
can't you?)

Right up to the point where I see movement and a weapon up the stairs,
snap off a couple of rounds and shout "Potts! Enemy, top of stairs!"...
as shots ring out from the top of the stairs along with a yell of "Emu!
Enemy, stairs!"

Pause. Curse volubly and imaginatively. Express gratitude to $DEITY of
choice that this is a training exercise and we were only using blank
rounds for our blue-on-blue. Explain events to Pl Comd and advise an
all-or-nothing approach: suggesting that next time, entry team goes in
upstairs and the other pair content themselves with covering the exits.
Suggestion accepted, experience promulgated.

Hopefully, having made or seen made the mistake in training, it will be
avoided in reality... there are so many new and exciting ways to cock
up, why repeat old ones?


I recall a similar scene in the german film "Stalingrad". They're clearing an
apartment building going floor to floor, but unfortunately two groups come around a
corner/top and bottom of stairs (I forget which) at the same time. Newbie shoots
and is feeling good that he's got them before they get him, then realizes that his
now dead target is wearing feldgrau, and is pretty disturbed. Old head looks at
him as he comes up, quickly sizes up the situation and casually says something
like, "Ach, don't worry about it. Same thing happened to me my first time," and
then moves past to continue the clearance.

Guy

  #18  
Old August 27th 04, 03:20 PM
M
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Default

Paul J. Adam
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means
a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted
commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs
in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on,
in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action.


Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used
nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for
quite some time.

Such mufflers are rather expensive, of course, and I can
understand that poor armies, resistance fighters and such
can't afford them. But to hi-tech armies that actually are
currently engaged in FIBUA, like the US one, damaging the
hearing of its soldiers seems much less affordable than
getting another piece of fancy kit.

And it's not just about hearing protection. A soldier
with his ears ringing after eg fireing his weapon within
a confined space without hearing protection, will have
immediately, but temporarily, much degraded hearing. And
a soldier subject to a very loud noise, like a nearby
explosion, may loose his hearing immediately and completely
for some time. Thus, I'd assume that active mufflers would
enhance the ability to sustain FIBUA, much for the same
reasons that non-active hearing protection, like simple
plugs, might impair the ability to do FIBUA, at least initially,
ie before the soldiers being subject to damaging noise levels.

Moreover, shouldn't practically all modern military helmets
be designed to be compatible with low-profile ear cups,
and vice versa? So why not use them?

Not only do electronic ear mufflers allow non-damaging
sounds to pass, but the amplification can be adjusted, so
that quiet sounds are enhanced. Coupled to a directonal
microphone (and especially with a parabolic antenna), even
very quiet sounds can be heard over considerable distances,
which could sometimes, in special circumstances, be useful.

Plugging one's radio output to the ear muffs, the voice
com will be much easier to hear in a noisy environment, as
the mufflers can be used to cut the background noise. In a
quiet environment, stealthiness might improve slightly too,
as even less received voice com would escape the muffs than
a simple unshielded head-set.

Or is there somehting that I miss? Is, after all, some
essential information lost when the sound passes through
the artificial, but hopefully hi-fi, electronics before
reaching the ear? The muffs do conserve stereophonic
(directional) info of course, but is there eg problems
due to the disparity between the artificial sound from
the muffs vs the sound propagating through the bones?
That one can't adapt to with training?
  #19  
Old August 27th 04, 04:47 PM
Kevin Brooks
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"M" *@*.* wrote in message
...
Paul J. Adam
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means
a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted
commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs
in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on,
in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action.


Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used
nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for
quite some time.


Trying to wear ear muffs under a kevlar helmet would be a bit of a chore,
for one. I'd guess that some sort of hearing enhancement and noise
suppression system is included in the Army's various future soldier
equipment research efforts now underway, but the biggest stumbling block to
all of these new systems (to include personal HUD's, etc.) right now is
*power*, and your muffs just add to that--another power-demanding device.
Many Army leaders have identified the need for lightweight, long-lasting
batteries/power supplies as being the biggest single hurdle we have to get
across if we are going to see "robosoldier" type systems go beyond the R&D
effort to actual fielding; right now we are just not there yet.

Brooks

snip


  #20  
Old August 27th 04, 06:24 PM
George Ruch
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Posts: n/a
Default

M *@*.* wrote:

Paul J. Adam
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means
a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted
commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs
in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on,
in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action.


Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used
nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for
quite some time.


[snip]

I assume you're talking about the Bose noise canceling headsets.

They could be good for that purpose, but not in all environments.

The regular headset costs $300. The aviation headset costs $1,000.

Cautions and Advisories:

From the Aviation Headset X Owner's Guide:
http://www.bose.com/controller;jsessionid=BviC3pLtj1xkevlZm7b8o4e9223Y aghwnSATt5v2E22zwc8dgVnj!-373760557!1879924776?event=VIEW_PRODUCT_PAGE_EVENT &product=headsetx_headset_inthebox&linksource=prod uctnav_txt_inthebox&pageName=/home_entertainment/headphones_headsets/headsets/headset_x/features.jsp
(mind the wrap)
Click on 'Owner's Guide'.

For the Quiet Comfort headsets:
http://www.bose.com/controller;jsessionid=BviC3pLtj1xkevlZm7b8o4e9223Y aghwnSATt5v2E22zwc8dgVnj!-373760557!1879924776?event=VIEW_PRODUCT_PAGE_EVENT &product=qc2_headphones_inthebox&linksource=produc tnav_txt_inthebox&pageName=/home_entertainment/headphones_headsets/headphones/qc2/photos.jsp
(mind the wrap)
Click on 'Owner's Guide'.

Both warn that familiar sounds may have an unfamiliar character when using
the headphones. Also, the Quiet Comfort Owner's Guide specifically warns
against using the headphones while driving on a public road or where the
inability to hear outside sounds may present a danger to the user or
others.

That said, I can easily see a use for the aviation headsets in aircraft,
tanks and other armored vehicles. I don't know whether training alone
would be enough for ground troops in all environments.

If you let some outside sound through, the system would have to be designed
to digitally filter the sounds of gun fire. It's possible - I've seen
audio noise reduction systems (dbx, IIRC) that effectively filtered only
the transient noise (clicks, pops, etc.) from vinyl recordings. The
question is would you want to do that if recognizing those sounds and being
able to place them in your field of hearing could be the difference between
life and death in a firefight? In that case, simple attenuation may be the
better solution.

Moreover, shouldn't practically all modern military helmets
be designed to be compatible with low-profile ear cups,
and vice versa? So why not use them?


Good idea for a basic field helmet.

Not only do electronic ear mufflers allow non-damaging
sounds to pass, but the amplification can be adjusted, so
that quiet sounds are enhanced. Coupled to a directonal
microphone (and especially with a parabolic antenna), even
very quiet sounds can be heard over considerable distances,
which could sometimes, in special circumstances, be useful.


Again, useful in some circumstances. Long-range surveillance, for example.

| George Ruch
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?"
 




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