Newbie holding questions

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Is there any airport that uses timed approaches? I though this was FAA
legacy stuff. Could be useful during high traffic fly-ins if there is
no radar though I guess.


In the USAF, we used timed approaches off and on in the Approach Control
facilities (RAPCONS), works well when you have lots of recoveries of
similar type aircraft from the same area and they all need a complete
procedure from the IAF for proficiency.
When I was in the USAF, they also used a compressed version of timed
approaches that crammed a whole lot of recovering airplanes into a small
area. It was called ASLAR (Aircraft Surge Launch and Recovery) and was
designed for periods when the radar was inop or it was inadvisable to
turn the radar on, and weather was IFR. It required pilot proficiency
and training in ASLAR and specific airspeeds to be flown at specific
points on the procedure so that a following aircraft would not overtake
a preceding aircraft. ASLAR also had the capacity to allow a wingman to
"drag" behind the lead on final so that by the time they got to the
runway they had full runway separation. It was more efficient than
using radar in some situations.

JPH

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:Xk0vf.40491$QW2.2848@dukeread08...

An EFC should always be part of a hold clearance, if they
forget, ask.


An EFC is not issued when no delay is expected.

But if no delay is expected and you have a radio failure
without an EFC, just how long are you expected to hold?

If you are given a clearance to hold w/o an EFC there is
still some delay expected, otherwise ATC would not issue a
hold. Make them say how much delay or give an EFC/EAC time
or you'll be holding until the fuel runs out. Maybe the
book does not require ATC to issue a time, but my sense of
self-preservation wants to know.

If I'm told to expect a hold, perhaps there are weather
delays or even a traffic situation [maybe a NORDO ahead]
I'll ask for a reduced speed, perhaps I filed 260 KTAS and
can slow to 200-220 KTAS and avoid holding and still give
them time.

If I have requested a hold for training, I'll tell them I
want 3 or four turns and I'll try to do it away from the FAF
to ease the load on the system.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
ink.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:Xk0vf.40491$QW2.2848@dukeread08...
|
| An EFC should always be part of a hold clearance, if
they
| forget, ask.
|
|
| An EFC is not issued when no delay is expected.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:%D0vf.40496$QW2.15228@dukeread08...

But if no delay is expected and you have a radio failure
without an EFC, just how long are you expected to hold?


You're not expected to hold.



If you are given a clearance to hold w/o an EFC there is
still some delay expected, otherwise ATC would not issue a
hold.


If a delay was expected an EFC would have been issued.



Make them say how much delay or give an EFC/EAC time
or you'll be holding until the fuel runs out. Maybe the
book does not require ATC to issue a time, but my sense of
self-preservation wants to know.


How much delay? The answer is "None." The book says do not specify an EFC
if no delay is expected. If your sense of self-preservation can't live with
that don't fly IFR.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 03:35:47 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:Xk0vf.40491$QW2.2848@dukeread08...

An EFC should always be part of a hold clearance, if they
forget, ask.


An EFC is not issued when no delay is expected.

If no delay is expected, then why be put in the hold in the first place?

If no EFC and radios go belly up while in IMC, when would you know to leave
the hold?

Allen

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

If no delay is expected, then why be put in the hold in the first place?


It's a tool of nonradar separation, it's called a "paper stop". Let's say
two aircraft are estimated to cross at a fix eight minutes apart. Minimum
separation is ten minutes, so some action must be taken. The later aircraft
is issued a hold prior to the common fix. Since the first aircraft is
expected to pass the common fix before the second aircraft reaches the
holding fix no delay is expected and no EFC is issued.



If no EFC and radios go belly up while in IMC, when would you know to
leave
the hold?


Without an EFC I wouldn't enter the hold. It's a moot point anyway,
whatever caused my comm radios to go belly up will affect my nav radios the
same way and I won't be able to identify the holding fix.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 03:57:35 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

How much delay? The answer is "None." The book says do not specify an EFC
if no delay is expected.

I respectfully disagree as there is time frame in your book.taken from
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html

5. When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance
beyond the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least
5 minutes before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit.

So, if you don't give me a clearance beyond my fix, then the pilot should
expecting an EFC if he has to hold over a fix.

In other words, as soon as I have to enter a hold, I should be expecting an
EFC as now there is a delay. After all, you have me spinning in circles.

My expected time enroute does not include time to hold over a fix.

Allen

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
whatever caused my comm radios to go belly up will affect my nav
radios the same way

The most common cause of radio failure is electrical failure, which
will indeed take out both your com and your nav, but there are
scenarios which will just take out your com. I've once had a relay in
the audio panel go TU and do exactly that. I once had a com radio
fail in a way that just produced intensly loud static.

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

I respectfully disagree as there is time frame in your book.taken from
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html

5. When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance
beyond the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least
5 minutes before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit.

So, if you don't give me a clearance beyond my fix, then the pilot should
expecting an EFC if he has to hold over a fix.

In other words, as soon as I have to enter a hold, I should be expecting
an
EFC as now there is a delay. After all, you have me spinning in circles.

My expected time enroute does not include time to hold over a fix.


http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0406.html#4-6-1

See subparagraph c.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 04:22:11 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

If no EFC and radios go belly up while in IMC, when would you know to
leave
the hold?


Without an EFC I wouldn't enter the hold. It's a moot point anyway,
whatever caused my comm radios to go belly up will affect my nav radios the
same way and I won't be able to identify the holding fix.

Not true. Stuck mic comes to mind quickly. Squelch set too high would be
second in mind. Something could fry within the com unit....

NAV still works, and before radios went south, at least the EFC would allow
me to navigate predictably. Again, realizing remotely possible, the rules
and regs did build this in with the EFC feature.