More on Powell and the guard

Ron wrote:
Parents can not get you your BA or BS degree.

They can indeed, especially if they are alumni and/or are public figures.
They're what are called legacy degrees.

No, that is legacy in terms of points for university acceptance. But that
does not help you pass your classe or get you your degree. Never heard of a
legacy degree...But it can apply for acceptance into school and frats.

Even my old Chinese launderyman understood the concept of "no tickee, no
washee". University fundraisers understand "no degree, no contributions" well
enough the know how to keep the money flowing. You're kidding yourself if you
think it works some other way......it doesn't!

They cant get thru F-102 training.

The offspring of public figures often are extended courtesies and
consideration
not available to others.

I dont think an IP will care you are you or where you came from. Ask Ed if he
ever gave rats ass during Fighter Lead In who someone was.

Ed may well not have during his career, but then he may never had a bumbler on
his wing only because the guy's daddy had clout. I, too, flew airplanes, and I
did it often enough to know that it can and does occasionally happen. I daresay
we've both worked for people who were career oriented to the degree that they
would have been responsive to potential political influence. It happens.

Parents cant make you excel at pilot training and ACM.

I don't believe I ever read of a claim that he excelled. When he took his
AFOQT, his application form reflected a pencil entry of 25th pctl, which was
the
lowest level acceptable for entrance into pilot training. I'm not even sure
if
the pencilled in entry didn't replace a lower original one.

I have read often that he was a very good stick at UPT, and he was damn good
at ACM while as an F-102 pilot

I guess we must have read different stuff. I read that his flying abilities
were so limited that his ANG supervisors were pleased when they learned that he
grounded himself (by not getting a current flight physical) before he killed
himself and destroyed one of their airplanes in the process. Incidentally, I
hope you weren't relying on what was said about his performance on those OERs
that were written about him....if I was writing one on the son of an influential
congressman, I wouldn't have been brutally frank or honest unless my retirement
papers had already been approved. Doing something like that was not conducive
to a long and satisfying career for the evaluator.

They also cant get you your MBA.

He himself acknowledged that he was a mediocre student who spent most of his
time drinking and doing as little as possible in order to get through the
program. My father was a sheet metal mechanic and with a similar academic
performance from me, Harvard would have bounced me out on my ass in a
heartbeat.
Let's not be so naive about the influence of parents who are public figures
and/or alumni.

Hell, I was a mediocre student too. B average all the way thru..at best. But
my IQ, AFOQT, SAT, etc were usually pretty high. He (and I) had an SAT of
over 1200, which tranlates pretty high. He certainly had a far better
academic record that Gore, but you dont see any Democrats that ever
criticized Gore over it

You're much too modest. A B average is hardly what anybody would consider
mediocre.........it is quite respectable. As for the various test scores you
got, that's really quite irrelevent to the discussion.



It's all in the eye of the beholder. When all is said and done, he can't
divorce his parents nor can he deny that he knows them when they make a
judicious call here or there and good things result for him. It doesn't mean
he
did it all on his own. Bill Gates did it all on his own, but Dubya's nowhere
near in the same class.

George Z.

Yes, but it sounds like you are holding it against him, because of his
parents. But then Kerry, Kennedy, Roosevelt, all came from priviledged
upbringings too.

Sure they did, but the last I heard, none of them majored in Alcoholism 101, and
none were C- students. AAMOF, if I recall correctly, you would not have gotten
a baccalaureate degree from my undergrad school with a C- average.....it would
have taken nothing less than a C average. Let's not confuse earning a degree
with being handed one with little if any expenditure of academic effort by the
student.

At risk of repeating myself, I think I said elsewhere that my father was a sheet
metal mechanic and if I had produced academic results no better than those
produced by Dubya, Harvard would have bounced my ass out of their MBA program in
a heartbeat.

George Z.

They cant get you thru UPT

They cant get thru F-102 training.

The offspring of public figures often are extended courtesies and
consideration
not available to others.

So now you're saying Bush got preferential treatment while going through
UPT/IFF and F-102 FTU? I'm sure you've got some proof for that ludicrous claim?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

No, that is legacy in terms of points for university acceptance. But that
does not help you pass your classe or get you your degree. Never heard of
a
legacy degree...But it can apply for acceptance into school and frats.

Even my old Chinese launderyman understood the concept of "no tickee, no
washee". University fundraisers understand "no degree, no contributions"
well
enough the know how to keep the money flowing. You're kidding yourself if
you
think it works some other way......it doesn't!


But now you are heading toward a grand conspiracy involving university faculty
and professors too. Legacy can help get you in, but it does not get you a
degree.

I have read often that he was a very good stick at UPT, and he was damn good
at ACM while as an F-102 pilot

I guess we must have read different stuff. I read that his flying abilities
were so limited that his ANG supervisors were pleased when they learned that
he
grounded himself (by not getting a current flight physical) before he killed
himself and destroyed one of their airplanes in the process. Incidentally, I
hope you weren't relying on what was said about his performance on those OERs
that were written about him....if I was writing one on the son of an
influential
congressman, I wouldn't have been brutally frank or honest unless my
retirement
papers had already been approved. Doing something like that was not
conducive
to a long and satisfying career for the evaluator.

"advertisement

In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base in
Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt and
self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury Udell. "I know your dad is a
congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After Bush
had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail in
mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his own
high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5 percent
of fighter pilots I've ever trained."


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

362436 (Ron) wrote:

No, that is legacy in terms of points for university acceptance. But that
does not help you pass your classe or get you your degree. Never heard of
a
legacy degree...But it can apply for acceptance into school and frats.

Even my old Chinese launderyman understood the concept of "no tickee, no
washee". University fundraisers understand "no degree, no contributions"
well
enough the know how to keep the money flowing. You're kidding yourself if
you
think it works some other way......it doesn't!


But now you are heading toward a grand conspiracy involving university faculty
and professors too. Legacy can help get you in, but it does not get you a
degree.

I have read often that he was a very good stick at UPT, and he was damn good
at ACM while as an F-102 pilot

I guess we must have read different stuff. I read that his flying abilities
were so limited that his ANG supervisors were pleased when they learned that
he
grounded himself (by not getting a current flight physical) before he killed
himself and destroyed one of their airplanes in the process. Incidentally, I
hope you weren't relying on what was said about his performance on those OERs
that were written about him....if I was writing one on the son of an
influential
congressman, I wouldn't have been brutally frank or honest unless my
retirement
papers had already been approved. Doing something like that was not
conducive
to a long and satisfying career for the evaluator.

"advertisement

In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base in
Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt and
self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury "Brown-nose" Udell. "I know your dad is a
congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After Bush
had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail wink in
mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his own
high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5 percent
of fighter pilots I've ever trained."

LOL!

G
Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

"Grantland" wrote in message
...
362436 (Ron) wrote:


In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base
in
Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt
and
self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury "Brown-nose" Udell. "I know your
dad is a
congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After
Bush
had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail
wink in
mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his
own
high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5
percent
of fighter pilots I've ever trained."

LOL!

So now the universities, their faculty, the Texas ANG and who knows how many
others are required in the conspiracy. That Gore guy must have lost on
purpose too.

On 29 Feb 2004 18:10:14 GMT, 362436 (Ron) wrote:

In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base in
Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt and
self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury Udell. "I know your dad is a
congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After Bush
had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail in
mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his own
high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5 percent
of fighter pilots I've ever trained."


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

And, let me add that when George W. Bush was in USAF Undergraduate
Pilot Training (a year long program which made it longer than John
Fonda Kerry was in SEA in BOTH of his "combat" tours), his T-37
instructor pilot was Tom "Baby Huey" Lockhart, an F-105 100-mission
over North Vietnam veteran who was with me at Korat in 1966.

Lockhart speaks well of the President's flying skills, but more
importantly, he is always ready to address the President's integrity
and friendship. When visiting a base nearby, the President spotted his
old IP across the rope-line--despite not having seen him in nearly 20
years, the President broke out of his Secret Service guards and went
to shake hands and express his gratitude to Tom for his instruction
years earlier.

Tom's got the pictures to prove it.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ron wrote:
No, that is legacy in terms of points for university acceptance. But that
does not help you pass your classe or get you your degree. Never heard of a
legacy degree...But it can apply for acceptance into school and frats.

Even my old Chinese launderyman understood the concept of "no tickee, no
washee". University fundraisers understand "no degree, no contributions"
well
enough the know how to keep the money flowing. You're kidding yourself if
you
think it works some other way......it doesn't!


But now you are heading toward a grand conspiracy involving university faculty
and professors too. Legacy can help get you in, but it does not get you a
degree.

No conspiracy....merely facing reality. It happens, perhaps not often, but then
again, not rarely either.

I have read often that he was a very good stick at UPT, and he was damn good
at ACM while as an F-102 pilot

I guess we must have read different stuff. I read that his flying abilities
were so limited that his ANG supervisors were pleased when they learned that
he
grounded himself (by not getting a current flight physical) before he killed
himself and destroyed one of their airplanes in the process. Incidentally, I
hope you weren't relying on what was said about his performance on those OERs
that were written about him....if I was writing one on the son of an
influential
congressman, I wouldn't have been brutally frank or honest unless my
retirement
papers had already been approved. Doing something like that was not
conducive
to a long and satisfying career for the evaluator.

"advertisement

In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base in
Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt and
self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury Udell. "I know your dad is a
congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After Bush
had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail in
mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his own
high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5 percent
of fighter pilots I've ever trained."

That's one pilot's opinion of another and hardly definitive. BTW, in earlier
days, anybody weighing 270 pounds would not have been able to fit into a fighter
cockpit. The tall guys inevitably ended up in bombers or transports, and the
real heavy guys (like 270 lbs.) ended up as the flight surgeon's medically
grounded annual project. Century series cockpits might be far more forgiving
and I'd certainly defer to someone like Ed Rasmussen, who'd be far more
knowledgeable than I on that subject. Anyway, one might be forgiven for
wondering what Udell's supervisors thought of him, and if Udell admired Bush so
much because they were cut from the same cloth and excelled at juvenile drinking
games in the O Club bar.

George Z.

That's one pilot's opinion of another and hardly definitive. BTW, in earlier
days, anybody weighing 270 pounds would not have been able to fit into a
fighter
cockpit. The tall guys inevitably ended up in bombers or transports, and the
real heavy guys (like 270 lbs.) ended up as the flight surgeon's medically
grounded annual project. Century series cockpits might be far more forgiving
and I'd certainly defer to someone like Ed Rasmussen, who'd be far more
knowledgeable than I on that subject. Anyway, one might be forgiven for
wondering what Udell's supervisors thought of him, and if Udell admired Bush
so
much because they were cut from the same cloth and excelled at juvenile
drinking
games in the O Club bar.

George Z.

But now you are trying to impugn someone else, just over your dislike of Bush,
without any real reason to be, and are just speculating. I think that stuff
is best left to you know who...


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

I liked the Newsweek excerpt enough to look it up on the web. Reading
farther down the page, I broke up upon reading this paragraph:

"Discharged from the Navy in 1970, John Kerry was racked with
nightmares about his time in combat. He grew his hair and joined
Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Some of the vets, most of whom were
working class, resented the patrician Kerry. A VVAW leader named Scott
Camil told The Boston Globe that a vet tried to reach Kerry at home
and was told by someone, presumably a maid, "Master Kerry is not at
home." At the next meeting, someone hung a sign on Kerry's chair that
read, FREE THE KERRY MAID."


On 29 Feb 2004 18:10:14 GMT, 362436 (Ron) wrote:

No, that is legacy in terms of points for university acceptance. But that
does not help you pass your classe or get you your degree. Never heard of
a
legacy degree...But it can apply for acceptance into school and frats.

Even my old Chinese launderyman understood the concept of "no tickee, no
washee". University fundraisers understand "no degree, no contributions"
well
enough the know how to keep the money flowing. You're kidding yourself if
you
think it works some other way......it doesn't!


But now you are heading toward a grand conspiracy involving university faculty
and professors too. Legacy can help get you in, but it does not get you a
degree.

I have read often that he was a very good stick at UPT, and he was damn good
at ACM while as an F-102 pilot

I guess we must have read different stuff. I read that his flying abilities
were so limited that his ANG supervisors were pleased when they learned that
he
grounded himself (by not getting a current flight physical) before he killed
himself and destroyed one of their airplanes in the process. Incidentally, I
hope you weren't relying on what was said about his performance on those OERs
that were written about him....if I was writing one on the son of an
influential
congressman, I wouldn't have been brutally frank or honest unless my
retirement
papers had already been approved. Doing something like that was not
conducive
to a long and satisfying career for the evaluator.

"advertisement

In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base in
Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt and
self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury Udell. "I know your dad is a
congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After Bush
had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail in
mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his own
high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5 percent
of fighter pilots I've ever trained."



all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"George Z. Bush" wrote

That's one pilot's opinion of another and hardly definitive. BTW, in
earlier
days, anybody weighing 270 pounds would not have been able to fit into a
fighter
cockpit. The tall guys inevitably ended up in bombers or transports, and
the
real heavy guys (like 270 lbs.) ended up as the flight surgeon's medically
grounded annual project. Century series cockpits might be far more
forgiving
and I'd certainly defer to someone like Ed Rasmussen, who'd be far more
knowledgeable than I on that subject. Anyway, one might be forgiven for
wondering what Udell's supervisors thought of him, and if Udell admired
Bush so
much because they were cut from the same cloth and excelled at juvenile
drinking
games in the O Club bar.


You might want to ask Chad Hennings about size and fighter cockpits.
6'6", 291, A-10 pilot, Dallas Cowboys defensive tackle.

(ok...the A-10 is not a 'fighter' in the classic sense, but neither is it a
tanker, transport, or bomber)

Pete