FAR 91.157 Operating in icing conditions

Teacherjh wrote:
For us little guys, ANY ICE AT ALL is forbidden. (unless the aircraft is
certified for known ice, which very few spam cans are).



Forbidden by what?
snip (though I can't find a
specific rule, it would certainly be classified as "careless and reckless" if
it led to an incident - it might be in the certification rules for aircraft,
snip

It's usually the aircraft's type certificate that specifies whether it can be
flown in ice, but older types don't have any statement about ice in the type
certificate.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

The FARs come before the laws of physics?

Sometimes the FAA will smite you first. Other times they don't get there in
time, and you are left facing teh Grand Canonical Ensemble.

What law, other than a natural law, would such an action violate?

The type certificate.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

The type certificate.


I see. So if a type certificate does not mention icing at all then there is
no prohibition against flight into known icing conditions in that aircraft,
other than, of course, the laws of physics?

So if a type certificate does not mention icing at all then there is
no prohibition against flight into known icing conditions in that aircraft,
other than, of course, the laws of physics?


Careless and reckless.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:
I KNOW this is a big can of worms, but I have a specific question
relating to sub-paragraphs b.1 and b.2 of this regulation regarinding
operating in icing conditions.

It says "...no pilot may fly--
(1) Under IFR into konwn or forecast moderate icing conditions; or
(2) Under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions..."

This seems odd. Why do you suppose the standards are different for IFR
and VFR ("moderate" vs "light or moderate)? Icing affects a pilots
ability to control the aircraft, so I do not see how instrument training
allows one to venture into worse conditions.

Well, I make no claim to understand that minds of the FAR writers, but
here's my opinion. It is more likely to inadvertantly encounter icing
when flying IFR in IMC. Pretty hard to accumulate ice if you aren't
flying in visible moisture (clouds or precip), so if you are VFR you
really have no excuse to get into even light icing conditions. However,
if you are flying legally in the clouds, it is easy to get into light
conditions inadvertantly. Wouldn't make a lot of sense to try to bust
every IFR pilot who strays into light icing.

However, you raise a good question and if you find an official answer,
please post it here.


So, if there is an airmet for "light icing", then it is legal for an IFR
pilot to enter the clouds (of course, on a valid IFR flight plan)?

I haven't studied the FARs on this in some time, so I can't say if the
exerpt you quoted above is all that applies, however, if it is, then it
appears that this would be legal.


What perectnage of the time, during winter, do icing forecasts get
issued whenever there are IFR conditions? In other words, in y'alls
experience, if you get 100 briefings during the winter time that include
IFR conditions, what perecntage of those will also have icing forecast.
My intuition says that it will be upwards of 90-100% (I am a relatively
new IFR pilot, so I do not have the experience base to say...looking for
other opinions here). If it is close to 100%, should I just hang up my
IFR certificate from Sept to May (I live in Wisconsin, so we only have
about 30 minutes of summer here per year ).

When I was flying IFR regularly (5 years ago), in the northeast you
could count on a forecast for icing almost every day from October
through April. Unless it was severe clear and below zero, you had an
icing forecast somewhere at some level. If you didn't fly whenever
there was forecast icing, you wouldn't fly in the northeast for at least
four months of the year and probably six.

Matt

Ron Natalie wrote:
"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ...

This seems odd. Why do you suppose the standards are different for IFR
and VFR ("moderate" vs "light or moderate)? Icing affects a pilots
ability to control the aircraft, so I do not see how instrument training
allows one to venture into worse conditions.


VFR pilots are less likely to fly (legally) in to precip or clouds. You got to
have mositure to form ice.


So, if there is an airmet for "light icing", then it is legal for an IFR
pilot to enter the clouds (of course, on a valid IFR flight plan)?


It's illegal for him to operate IFR period.

Really? Even if you don't fly in the clouds?

Matt

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Careless and reckless.


I believe you're referring to FAR 91.13, which is Careless OR Reckless
Operation, not careless AND reckless. I own the aircraft and fly it solo,
how does flying it into known icing conditions endanger the life or property
of another?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
.net...
|
| "Teacherjh" wrote in message
| ...
|
| This applies to large and turbine powered aircraft.
|
| For us little guys, ANY ICE AT ALL is forbidden. (unless the aircraft
is
| certified for known ice, which very few spam cans are).
|
|
| Forbidden by what?

The published operating limitations of the aircraft, which must be adhered
to in accordance with the type certificate and the general prohibition
against reckless and dangerous operation. Most modern light planes have
specific provisions in their type certificates prohibiting flight into known
icing conditions.

Additionally, commercial operators flying under part 135 are prohibited from
flying into known icing conditions unless the aircraft is certified for it.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message ...


It's illegal for him to operate IFR period.

Really? Even if you don't fly in the clouds?

If he is in a case where that reg applies to him, yes. The rules don't
say "in clouds" they say Instrument Flight Rules.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

The published operating limitations of the aircraft, which must be adhered
to in accordance with the type certificate and the general prohibition
against reckless and dangerous operation. Most modern light planes have
specific provisions in their type certificates prohibiting flight into
known
icing conditions.


What forbids those light planes that have no such specific provisions in
their type certificates from flying into known icing conditions?