Question of aborted landing after instrument approach

Ray wrote:

Ray wrote:



After looking at the AIM I found that I was wrong and the original
poster was correct - the AIM recommends flying the departure procedu

You are reading that into it. The FAA cannot suggest that you operate
contrary to an ATC clearance. Your ATC clearance in this hypothetical
includes the missed approach procedure, not the ODP.

The language is FAA "CYA" to alert you that they don't protect below
MDA/DA or inside the MAP.

Take a look South Lake Tahoe, KTVL, for a high MDA and a very early MAP.
As you descend beyond the MAP you are going into an obstacle coffin
corner. And, there is no ODP for the approach runway.

AIM 5-4-21(g)
"Missed approach obstacle clearance is predicated on beginning the
missed approach procedure at the MAP from MDA or DA and then climbing
200 feet/NM or greater. Initiating a go-around after passing the
published MAP may result in total loss of obstacle clearance. To
compensate for the possibility of reduced obstacle clearance during a
go-around, a pilot should apply procedures used in takeoff planning.
Pilots should refer to airport obstacle and departure data prior to
initiating an instrument approach procedure."

Learn something new every day...

- Ray

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

That is a very good observation. I would be interested to know how many
airports there are where the difference between a missed and a
departure procedure are significantly different to warrant
consideration.

You would have to justify that use of the ODP was prudent because it
would be an exercise of emergency authority.

Chad Speer wrote:

*****
AIM 5-4-21(g)
"Missed approach obstacle clearance is predicated on beginning the
missed approach procedure at the MAP from MDA or DA and then climbing
200 feet/NM or greater. Initiating a go-around after passing the
published MAP may result in total loss of obstacle clearance. To
compensate for the possibility of reduced obstacle clearance during a
go-around, a pilot should apply procedures used in takeoff planning.
Pilots should refer to airport obstacle and departure data prior to
initiating an instrument approach procedure."
*****

I don't think this advises against the use of a missed approach
procedure, it just explains that there is reduced obstacle clearance if
you are beyond the MAP or below the MDA/DH and the pilot should
consider that and become familiar with the obstacles.

You pass go and collect $200.

Jose wrote:

Fly the published missed approach procedure, that is what it is for.


Visit our website for more aviation data, to talk with an expert, view
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Your posts here do not inspire confidence in pilotweb.org.

Jose

His respone is 100% correct.

Travis Marlatte wrote:

"PilotWeb.org" wrote in message
ups.com...

Fly the published missed approach procedure, that is what it is for.


Visit our website for more aviation data, to talk with an expert, view
jobs, post your pilot resume and profile, and read aviation news.


http://PilotWeb.org



And now back to our regularly scheduled program...

I agree with Jose. Your flippant response in spite of the fact that others
had already posted quotes from the AIM to the contrary will not lead me to
your website.

Is this a popularity contest? The gentleman is correct, there is no
option provided to fly the ODP.

Dave S wrote:

wrote:
ow this might have played out

if I had been on an instrument approach. Say I was on an ILS (HAF has
none, but pretend) at minimums, and I had to abort the landing after
the MAP. The weather is way below circling, so I need to get back up
again. It's too late to fly the missed. What can I safely do?

Unlike NPAs, especially those with high minimums, a *standard* CAT I ILS
has missed approach protection almost to the runway. Different criteria.

wrote:


wrote:
ow this might have played out

if I had been on an instrument approach. Say I was on an ILS (HAF has
none, but pretend) at minimums, and I had to abort the landing after
the MAP. The weather is way below circling, so I need to get back up
again. It's too late to fly the missed. What can I safely do?


Dave S wrote:

On the garden variety Cat 1 ILS you are at 200 feet AGL and over the
approach lights when you reach DH (decision height). How would it be
"too late" to fly the missed approach? If you are genuinely concerned,
pitch for VX instead of VY for any percieved obstacle clearance, but VY
should suffice nicely.


I mis-wrote in my first post, though most readers got my drift. I said
I was at minimums when I should have said that the weather was at
minimums (implying, for example, that circling back would be out) I was
talking about a scenario where I would be well below DH or past a MAP
when the runway incursion occurs.

As you point out, every instrument pilot knows you can initiate a
missed approach from DH or at the MAP. After all, most of us learned
how to fly approaches by repeatedly practicing that very scenario.


Also think about the practical aspects.. You went around because of a
runway incursion by an aircraft that didn't look before entering the
runway... had this been during a socked in IFR day, with a 200 or 300
foot ceiling, the vfr guys wouldnt even be turning a wheel.


I personally find this explanation somewhat unsatisfying. I (try to)
know the rules and operate by them but don't like my options to be
limited by what the "VFR guys" are //supposed// to be doing. I have
been flying long enough to see plenty of people depart VFR from
uncontrolled airports when they clearly should not have. Also, there
are the scenarios of the snowplow, animal, FOD, runway lights suddenly
going out, etc.

I'm satisfied with the answer found by the poster named Ray who found
the AIM section (5-4-21-g) that describes the procedure for going
around afer DH/MAP. They state quite clearly that the pilot should be
thinking "takeoff", not "missed."

That is not the message they are trying to convey. They are trying to
tell you that, where the airport/obstacle environment is that complex,
you had better well have a plan to avoid obstacle while getting back to
the published missed approach procedure.

Sam Spade wrote:



Take a look South Lake Tahoe, KTVL, for a high MDA and a very early MAP.
As you descend beyond the MAP you are going into an obstacle coffin
corner. And, there is no ODP for the approach runway.


I looked at KTVL and it now does have an ODP for that runway, although
most airplanes could not meet the required climb performance. It had no
ODP to the south for many years.

I think I agree. One will, of course, fly the missed approach, but one
may not want to //just// fly the missed. You have to think about any
special considerations necessary to get you back into a position from
which the missed approach can be executed safely. That doesn't mean
flying a DP by the letter, but in my mind, it most definitely means
knowing what is on the appropriate DP that might be relevant.

I view the rules in a certain hierarchy. First comes the rule of
avoiding hitting granite. Then come the FARs, then comes the AIM, and
eventually, way back in the end comes consideration of what I heard on
USENET.

-- dave j


Sam Spade wrote:

That is not the message they are trying to convey. They are trying to
tell you that, where the airport/obstacle environment is that complex,
you had better well have a plan to avoid obstacle while getting back to
the published missed approach procedure.

Is this a popularity contest? The gentleman is correct, there is no option provided to fly the ODP.

The AIM disagrees with this gentleman, and points out the possibility of
coming into unexpected contact with Cumulo Granite. Rules are all
subject to higher rules, and the highest rules are the rules of physics.
Those rules WILL be obeyed.

And as for being a popularity contest, yes it is. The aforementioned
gentleman is posting responses solely to generate traffic to his web
site (and likely for the purpose of indirectly generating income through
increased popularity). He's doing so by posting flip, sometimes
dangerously incomplete, and sometimes incorrect responses as a carrier
for his commercial message.

I'll take Mx over this any day.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.