Electric Car Conversion Companies: Alternatives To Gas Powered Cars

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:12:51 -0500, "Roger (K8RI)" wrote:

Blah blah blah, now why is it your entire dissertation is all about the negatives of
driving an electric car. The obvious is that you worry if electric car use becomes more
widespread, you might have to pay more for your electricity. Too bad. I live in an area
where the cost is 7cents a kwh, and is generated by a nuke plant. So goes your coal
fired worries. And why do you think anyone else is so concerned about which fuel makes a
certian amount of polution. You think whether or not it makes you happy or not is going
to have any bearing on the decision to use an electric car? I'm going to get one anyway,
strain the power grid charging it up, don't care how much the power company polutes
making the juice to charge it up either. Not everyone is so big picture minded about the
whole affair as you are. I would love to be able to get around my local area and never
pull into the gas station and pay the current price of gas.


Before we jump from the frying pan into the fire how about some
analysis on rather an electric car is really efficient. Somehow I
can't believe it is more efficient and less poluting to generate the
electricity, transmit it long distances, store it and convert it back
to energy to drive a car than use direct conversion of gasoline to
energy. That doesn't even consider the long term enviromental impact
of dealing with the chemicals and heavy metals used in batteries.

Electric cars are more efficient than the regular variety, but... and
it's a big but. The all electrics are short range and not practical
for most of us, but for those with short drives they do have
sufficient range. So far, they are Expensive compared to regular cars.
Very expensive. Although they are efficient. The motors are more
like 95% which is great and even taking into account all the losses in
power generation and transmission they are more efficient than the gas
powered car, BUT (there's another one of those buts) even with that
increased efficiency they probably create considerably more pollution
than gas powered cars as most electricity is generated by coal fired
plants. Those plants release a lot of particulates, sulphur, CO2, and
Mercury through tall stacks that send the results to cities and states
down wind. In the end that power to power the electric car is more
polluting than the gas powered cars, or more so than most of them.
OTOH if most of the cars in our major cities were electric we'd see a
marked increase of air quality in those cities. OTOH if those cars
were small hybrids we'd also see an increase in the air quality.

Then there is the problem of getting electricity to the end user as
well as cost. Simply stated; we currently do not have the grid
capacity even in off hours to handle a substantial number of all
electric cars. So what happens if a lot of people go for the electric
car and we are short on grid capacity. Distributed power generation
using solar, wind, or what ever can help in many geographic areas, but
without more grid capacity those too are limited. Real time metering
and control of demand is on its way. Some areas already have it, but
with a continuing high demand you can expect to see rates get much
higher. Her in Michigan they run about 10 cents per KWh with all
charges while in California they peak around 38 cents. At 38 cents
per KWh it would be difficult to save money over the cost of running
an efficient hybrid.

On top of this are the batteries needed. Enough lead acid batteries to
give a reasonable range (just from the suburbs into town to shop)
would be expensive, very heavy, take up a lot of space, and are a
hazard on the roads due to transporting sulphuric acid. How long will
one heavy duty, deep cycle marine battery run a starter? Now kick
that up to moving the car and it's going to take a lot of batteries.

Even good high capacity battery packs such as Nickel Metal Hydride
(which also makes a good Hydrogen sponge) is expensive and no light
weight. Typical MiMH packs used in hybrids today run on the order of
$4,000 plus and they are sufficient only when used in conjunction with
a small gas engine. It's possible, but doubtful two packs ($8,000)
would manage 40 miles even in city driving.

Then there is the new Lithium family of batteries. They are powerful,
compact and lighter weight with reasonable life, but they are *really*
expensive.

BUT (had to say it again) the new technology batteries present a
disposal and/or recycling problem in addition to all the pollution
from the coal fired power plants.. They are not environmental friendly
but they haven't been around long enough to really see how this is
going to fly.

Also as soon as the technology becomes widespread the price of
electricity will raise enough for the all electric car to lose any
cost advantage. First in and First out (FIFO to borrow a computer
term) could save a lot if they weren't so expensive to implement.
Unfortunately when they drive up the price it will be a higher price
we all have to pay just to turn on the lights.

The side effects of many going to all electric would probably have a
greater effect on the cost of living then using a lot of corn to make
alcohol will on the food chain.

Hydrogen takes even more energy to produce.

All-in-all there is no one technology that can have much more than a
small effect as far as helping the economy and environment. Like the
energy efficient home that uses a mix of active and passive solar
energy along with the power mains/natural gas and even uses the gray
water instead of dumping it down the sewer, we are going to have to
combine technologies along with learning how to conserve. Currently
the best answer by far is the hybrid and learning how to conserve.

Roger (K8RI)

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"Ted Striker" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:12:51 -0500, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:

Blah blah blah, now why is it your entire dissertation is all about the
negatives of
driving an electric car. The obvious is that you worry if electric car use
becomes more
widespread, you might have to pay more for your electricity. Too bad. I
live in an area
where the cost is 7cents a kwh, and is generated by a nuke plant. So goes
your coal
fired worries. And why do you think anyone else is so concerned about
which fuel makes a
certian amount of polution. You think whether or not it makes you happy or
not is going
to have any bearing on the decision to use an electric car? I'm going to
get one anyway,
strain the power grid charging it up, don't care how much the power
company polutes
making the juice to charge it up either. Not everyone is so big picture
minded about the
whole affair as you are. I would love to be able to get around my local
area and never
pull into the gas station and pay the current price of gas.

IMHO, Roger's points were well taken. Most of the "solutions" we see
bandied about are scams.

OTOH, this is a great time to play around with both electrics and
hybrids--before the limitations and problems become well known and also
before both money and permits are required to turn the batteries back in.

BTW, there is another form of hybrid that works quite well--using an
internal combustion engine and an electric drive system. The railroads have
been using them quite successfully for the past half of a century. They have
tremendous pulling power at low speeds, but don't have the high speed
acceleration and hill climbing power that we currently demand from our cars.
So, some infrastructure changes would be needed--mostly in the form of
longer acceleration ramps on the expressways.

Peter

In article ,
Ted Striker wrote:

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:12:51 -0500, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:

Blah blah blah, now why is it your entire dissertation is all about the
negatives of driving an electric car.

Perhaps because they affect actual users *right now*?

Someday, great...

But this is now.

On Nov 26, 10:00 am, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Harry K" wrote in message

...





On Nov 26, 7:43 am, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"IO-540" wrote in message

. ..

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:34:48 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Electric cars are not an unrealistic space age creation. Electric
cars were created way back in the 1900s when gasoline was so expensive
that consumers could not afford to fill their vehicles. Sound
familiar? During this time period there were more electric cars on
the road than gas powered cars. Unfortunately, research into creating
electric cars as the mainstream vehicle was pushed aside when cheaper
ways to produce oil were found. So where can a consumer go to create
their own electric car? There are electric car conversion companies
willing to assist in this pursuit. Discount Auto
Partshttp://www.behot.us

I saw something on TV about that, they showed this guy who took older
small cars like Triumph Spitfires, and converted them to electric. And
they were nothing fancy, just glorified golf carts with more speed and
batteries. I'd love one for just getting around my area, especially
since I don't have to travel that far. I wonder how much it would cost
to charge one up after the batteries were depleted? I'll bet it's
cheaper than the gas would cost. It would doubt take a large bank of
deep cycle marine type batteries, which aren't cheap, but not all that
expensive either. They have them at Walmart for about the same as
start batteries for cars.

Before trying a DIY car conversion, try a motorcycle. Converting a
motorcycle to electric is much easier, cheaper and generally more
successful.

Bill D- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When it comes to practical transporation, a motorcycle, scooter, etc.
ranks only slightly better than a bike. Maybe in the south where year-
round use is possible (although not comfortable in the winter) and if
you don't want to carry anything sizeable.

Harry K

Somewhat overstated, Harry.

I ride a 1000cc Kawasaki Concours sport touring bike in Colorado. It's 28
degrees outside right now and I plan to ride it to lunch adding only a
flight jacket and helmet.

Any temperature above freezing is comfortable once the engine warms up since
the engine heat is captured in a bubble behind the fairing. My feet stay
downright toasty. It's actually less comfortable in mid summer.

The two huge hardside luggage boxes easily hold a weeks clothing. I do 99%
of my shopping with the bike. My SUV rarely gets used.

My average is 60 MPG and with 7.5 gallons in the tank, that's a long ways
between fillups. Of course at 80 mph on the interstates, it's more like
47MPG.

I'd buy an electric motorcycle like the Vectrix Thrust in a heartbeat.
See:Http://www.bsmotoring.com/bsm/wcms/e...how2007-071123...
(scroll down near the bottom of the page)

Bill D- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree with ya in the efficiency of a motorcycle. I live in Jackson
Hole and cool weather is a treat over hot summers. One thing you
didn't mention is you hit one patch of ice on that bike and you will
be sporting some extensive road rash, or worse...

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:42:25 -0800 (PST), stol
wrote:

snip
I agree with ya in the efficiency of a motorcycle. I live in Jackson
Hole and cool weather is a treat over hot summers. One thing you
didn't mention is you hit one patch of ice on that bike and you will
be sporting some extensive road rash, or worse...

I once laid my old Harley down right in front of a school buss. The
tires on that old (I did say old) Harley were about as smooth as the
top of my head is now. I hit the rear brake and the motorcycle sorta
turned and rolled to the left. (Those old roll bars really did work
g) and left me sitting on top right side of the frame as it slide
down the pavement tires first. It was just that looking at the grill
of that school buss about 6 feet from my nose made me a bit nervous.
Fortunately the roll bars didn't slow me as fast as the brakes slowed
the school buss. We all came to a stop, I stood it back up and headed
for home. No injuries other than a bit of chrome off the left roll
bar...and my nerves. :-))

Roger (K8RI)

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:54:41 -0500, "Peter Dohm"
wrote:


"Ted Striker" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:12:51 -0500, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:

Hmmm...That message does not come up on the server I'm using.

At any rate and in order.

Blah blah blah, now why is it your entire dissertation is all about the
negatives of

All about the negatives of the electric car? It wasn't. It addressed
both positives and negatives for now and the future. Unfortunately
when looked at as a whole with the impact on society, the negatives
outweigh the positives by a wide margin.

driving an electric car. The obvious is that you worry if electric car use
becomes more
widespread, you might have to pay more for your electricity. Too bad. I
live in an area

I'm trying to figure if this is for real of just trolling:-)) it
comes on just a bit heavy to be real, but??

You are taking what I see over all as being a personal impact
statement and it's not. My statement was as to how "in general" it
would affect our society, not me as an individual. I happen to be in
an area with relatively cheap electricity and tend to be an "early
adopter" of technology.

where the cost is 7cents a kwh, and is generated by a nuke plant. So goes
your coal

Isn't this kinda centrist thinking?
I'm talking about the general population and you are talking about ...
you.

fired worries. And why do you think anyone else is so concerned about
which fuel makes a

Stop and read the papers. The general population is up in arms about
the price of gas. Wait until their electric bills are scaled up
proportionally. I still pay (per month) for electricity about what I
paid in 1976. Actually for a while I had an all electric home heated
with ceiling cable where the bills were about $290 a month and that
was somewhere in the 77-78 range. It's also several times what I pay
now. Remember too, that all alternative energy sources come with some
side effects. Alcohol/corn/food supply. Electric car/cost of
electricity/overall cost of living "nation wide"


certian amount of polution. You think whether or not it makes you happy or
not is going

Again, I'm talking about the general population and what they consider
acceptable. Unless you believe conspiracy stories about the press and
news in general, the population in general appears to be unhappy about
the cost of energy and pollution. At least there are a lot of stories
on the news about some one complaining.

to have any bearing on the decision to use an electric car? I'm going to
get one anyway,

Go for it. I'm not trying to influence any ones car buying.

strain the power grid charging it up, don't care how much the power
company polutes

Which is unfortunate as the bigger the mess we make now the more
expensive it'll be to clean up and the bigger the impact on the
overall economy when it's done. Sooner or later the clean up will have
to be done. Resistance to conventional, coal powered plants has been
high nation wide. Just in the last year plans for a big expansion of
new plants was abandoned down in Texas. Resistance to running new
transmission lines has been even higher. Even the governors of some
Eastern states are fighting the planed "Eastern Transmission Corridor"
making the juice to charge it up either. Not everyone is so big
picture
minded about the

Not everyone, but it's a substantial number and growing. It's also
this kind of thinking that has gas prices where they are now and what
in a few years may be considered "the good old days. It's also more
than likely to affect those who are now isolated and feel protected.
Centrist thinking is why gas costs as much as it does.

I do happen to believe in Nuke power as one of the alternatives, but
it takes about 20 years to get any new plants on line and there are
none proposed that I know of. So you could probably add about another
5 to 10 years of paper work to get one started to that 20 year build
time.

whole affair as you are. I would love to be able to get around my local
area and never
pull into the gas station and pay the current price of gas.

So would I, but you are unlikely to do that very far into the future
as other areas start pulling more power from your area and prices
reflect supply and demand. Also, like a good hybrid you will probably
pay enough more for a good all electric car that even if power remains
cheap for you the over all cost of driving that car will likely be
higher than it would have been using the expensive gas.
However as demand goes up the power grid will start drawing power from
your area into other areas. They did that to us in Michigan with
natural gas a couple years back when California screwed up. They sent
our reserves of cheap gas to California where they could make much
more money which resulted in higher prices here. When the power
companies can make more money by shipping your electricity to other
areas you will be seeing new, high voltage transmission lines running
out of the plant.


IMHO, Roger's points were well taken. Most of the "solutions" we see
bandied about are scams.

And the ones that aren't come with "side effects",don't scale well, or
are regionally dependent. Many of those side effects are unlikely to
be anticipated. Rarely does anything come with less side effects than
expected.


OTOH, this is a great time to play around with both electrics and
hybrids--before the limitations and problems become well known and also
before both money and permits are required to turn the batteries back in.

Even now the cheapest way to get rid of a big battery pack it to take
it to an auto dealer. Notice how auto parts dealers now also serve as
used oil collection places.


BTW, there is another form of hybrid that works quite well--using an
internal combustion engine and an electric drive system. The railroads have
been using them quite successfully for the past half of a century. They have
tremendous pulling power at low speeds, but don't have the high speed
acceleration and hill climbing power that we currently demand from our cars.
So, some infrastructure changes would be needed--mostly in the form of
longer acceleration ramps on the expressways.

Peter

Roger (K8RI)

"Ernest Christley" wrote in message
...
Roger (K8RI) wrote:

Even good high capacity battery packs such as Nickel Metal Hydride
(which also makes a good Hydrogen sponge) is expensive and no light
weight. Typical MiMH packs used in hybrids today run on the order of
$4,000 plus and they are sufficient only when used in conjunction with
a small gas engine. It's possible, but doubtful two packs ($8,000)
would manage 40 miles even in city driving.


My favorite answer to the range problem of batteries is to not try to do
it. Sort of like the way you ended your post, don't rely on one
technology.

Combine the battery vehicles with mass-transit railways. Just flatbed
trailers, really. Drive your electric a few miles to the local station,
and drive it up onto the train for the commute or to the next town. Drive
it off at (or near) the destination, and go where you want.

Electrics have problems with range. Mass-transit has the same problem
that airplanes do...once you arrive at the station/airport, how do you go
the last 5 miles. Combine the two, and there are some interesting
possibilities.

It's called a "Land Ferry" and it makes a lot of sense. Amtrack runs a
service from the Northeast to Florida. If I could get my motorcycle on a
train for California this winter, I'd do it.

"Bill Daniels" wrote

It's called a "Land Ferry" and it makes a lot of sense. Amtrack runs a
service from the Northeast to Florida. If I could get my motorcycle on a
train for California this winter, I'd do it.

Do some serious checking, and I'll bet you could find a way.

If there is not a regular dedicated vehicle transport system available, you
could make a shipping crate and strap you bike securely in it, and have a
local transporter ship it. If you shipped it by something like Roadway, it
would still probably end up in a Land/Sea type pod, then loaded on a double
stack container train.

Making your own transport crate would probably be the best way for your bike
to arrive in perfect condition, too. ;-)
--
Jim in NC

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote

(Those old roll bars really did work
g) and left me sitting on top right side of the frame as it slide
down the pavement tires first. No injuries other than a bit of chrome off
the left roll
bar...and my nerves. :-))

Been there, done that!

As I recall, I needed a new clutch lever, too. Amazing how much aluminum
can be ground off, during a 5 second slide along the asphalt! g
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Bill Daniels" wrote

It's called a "Land Ferry" and it makes a lot of sense. Amtrack runs a
service from the Northeast to Florida. If I could get my motorcycle on a
train for California this winter, I'd do it.

Do some serious checking, and I'll bet you could find a way.

If there is not a regular dedicated vehicle transport system available,
you could make a shipping crate and strap you bike securely in it, and
have a local transporter ship it. If you shipped it by something like
Roadway, it would still probably end up in a Land/Sea type pod, then
loaded on a double stack container train.

Making your own transport crate would probably be the best way for your
bike to arrive in perfect condition, too. ;-)
--

Say what!!!