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#71
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"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message ... In article , (ArtKramr) wrote: Subject: Instructors: is no combat better? From: Howard Berkowitz Date: 3/9/04 2:50 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: In article , "Kevin Brooks" wrote: "Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message ... Seriously, would anyone care to speculate that if aircraft gunner was still a tactically useful skill, how much virtual reality simulator time (e.g., in at least a 3-axis-of-motion device) would a gunner get before going to a combat unit? Aggressor simulators only, or perhaps a few pilots that have flown the aggressor ship manipulating the target? I suspect temperature, noise, fumes, etc. would all be part of the simulator. Heck, they used "simulators" of a sort like that during WWII. My dad, who was a gunner on a B-29, remembers standing in the back of a truck that drove along while the trainee took shots at model aircraft. Right. But let's assume full modern simulator capability. What would that have done for combat effectiveness? A truck, for example, is going to be "flying" much more straight and level, there won't be the noise of multiple defensive guns or the sound of your plane being hit, assorted fumes, cold, etc. The model plane is probably not being controlled by one of the best of pilots (or their doppelganger in an intelligent simulator). The problem with simulators is that no one ever died in one. How is a dead gunner that can't fly a mission an advantage? Not getting killed strikes me more as an advantage than a problem. For example, the motivation for Top Gun was that a fighter pilot would be far more likely to survive and win if he could get through his first five engagements -- so the training goal was to give him the equivalent five in expensive, realistic training -- but not as expensive as pilots. It's also a little marginal to say no one ever died. I agree not literally, but physiological measurements show that crashing in a realistic flight simulator is extremely stressful -- and really drives home the lesson of what one did wrong. In the Army's field training with the MILES "laser-tag-on-steroids-system", it's sufficiently realistic that there have had to be medical intervention to deal with the stress -- and counseling that brought a far better soldier to a duty unit. Personally, I have substantial experience with advanced medical simulators. Believe me, when a medical student, resident, or practicing physician sees how their actions would just have killed someone, it's an incredibly strong learning reinforcement. Saw a similar situation during a division Warfighter exercise, embedded into a V Corps WFX. Our division tactical CP engineer rep had to make a quick recommendation regarding an artillery shoot/don't shoot query that concerned a report of mechanized units crossing a float bridge. He checked our digital engineer SITREP and gave a thumbs-up for the shoot. Unfortunately, the unit that was crossing was a blue unit ( a separate armored brigade that had been chopped to us the evening before, and was not too good at keeping us abreast of their activities). They put a multi-battalion fire-for-effect on the bridge and killed a lot of blues. Even though it was only electrons that ended up "dying", the officer in question took it rather hard, being a conscientious sort of guy. And yeah, the adrenaline can get to pumping during a high paced sim. Brooks |
#73
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Subject: Instructors: is no combat better?
From: Howard Berkowitz Date: 3/9/04 5:21 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: In article , (ArtKramr) wrote: Subject: Instructors: is no combat better? From: Howard Berkowitz Date: 3/9/04 4:06 PM Pacific Standard Time Justice Thomas has not exactly been the spiritual or intellectual leader of the Court. Ah Howard your understatement is poetic.(grin) Let us count our blessings. You may remember the failed nomination of Harold Carswell. In general, there were less ideological objections to him than a general realization he wasn't too bright. Sen. Roman Hruska (R-Neb) complained in one speech "There are a lot of mediocre people in this country. Don't they deserve representation too?" Nebraska didn't have a monopoly on that sort of insight. The then-senator from my own state, the great Commonwealth of Virginia, Bill Scott (R), called a press conference to deny allegations he was the dumbest man in the Senate. The mind boggles. (sigh) Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#74
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Subject: Instructors: is no combat better?
From: Howard Berkowitz Date: 3/9/04 5:15 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: In article , (ArtKramr) wrote: Subject: Instructors: is no combat better? From: Howard Berkowitz Date: 3/9/04 3:54 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: e. As far as saying anything negative, I really don't want to go back into the archives, but I'm fairly certain you sounded at least dubious about how someone could rise to O-6 without combat, and suggested that he should have sought it out. I would have sought it out. wouldn't you have as well? Let's say I had been in service.. My answer is probably not, and thoughtfully, for the good of my country. My strongest skills are in C3I -- I'm trained as both a network architect and as a strategic intelligence analyst. Being able to combine the two helped, for example, when I consulted on design of command posts at the joint command level. As I've said before, some of my work involved personnel sensors for Viet Nam. If some of the devices I worked on variously could tell a strike pilot where troops were located under jungle canopy, I might save quite a few pilots from flak traps. We worked on a system that was just in prototype, but potentially could let you line up "peaceful" villagers and find out which ones had recently handled Soviet-bloc weapons -- and perhaps get them out of circulation before they ambushed you. So am I going to do more good for my country in a cockpit or in a laboratory? Quite probably the latter. Guess you are right. But I was an 18 year old kid and there was a war on and there way no way in hell I was going to miss it no matter what my qualifications were, You are obviously far more thoughtful and analytical than I was. I wanted to go to war and nothing in hell was going to stop me. But I guess that is theway we all were when we were 18. (sigh) Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#75
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Thank you for your interesting post. And thank you for telling your
story without flames, insults or sarcasm. I appreciate that. In other words, Kramer, allow me to spell it out for ya. What the poster is alluding to above is that bush pilots are among the thousands of brave aviators whom you have categorically insulted as "cowards." I'll put it in my own words. Art, I sincerely respect and appreciate the sacrifice you made for freedom. I literally get Goosebumps thinking about the sacrifice of W.W.II veterans. But I feel the same way about some other vets from other wars, and for people who've stood up to injustice, and for children who've blossomed despite mistreatment, to parents who sacrificed everything for their children's welfare, and to people who are devoted to helping others. Indeed, the most heroic people I've ever heard about were NOT combat vets (just about every religious figure comes to mind as examples, and I think children and mothers have shown me the greatest courage). Combat is only one test of men, and an imperfect one at that. I'll stop preaching about now, as I don't have all the answers, and I'm not a combat veteran myself (although I have put my life in harm's way for others). The point of my post was: a) to mention that in WWII, non-combat instructors were highly valued in some instances (talking to my father tonight, he said my granddad Lancasters later in the war, fighters earlier- my granddad could really fly 'em all!!), b) through his years of service my grandfather made a courageous and valuable contribution to the freedom of the world, and c) Art, if you truly believe that heroism isn't limited to combat, you might want to examine the kind of language you use (e.g., the respect for a non-combat instructor). There was no flame, sarcasm or insult designed into my post, only a desire to illustrate that you don't have to serve in combat to show courage deserving of, and receiving, respect. In my limited opinion, courage is neither necessarily required for or equated with combat service (the type-writer guy in Saving Private Ryan serves as a fictitious example). Sincerely, Tony |
#76
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In article ,
"Kevin Brooks" writes: "Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message ... Seriously, would anyone care to speculate that if aircraft gunner was still a tactically useful skill, how much virtual reality simulator time (e.g., in at least a 3-axis-of-motion device) would a gunner get before going to a combat unit? Aggressor simulators only, or perhaps a few pilots that have flown the aggressor ship manipulating the target? I suspect temperature, noise, fumes, etc. would all be part of the simulator. Heck, they used "simulators" of a sort like that during WWII. My dad, who was a gunner on a B-29, remembers standing in the back of a truck that drove along while the trainee took shots at model aircraft. Somebody from the Film Industry (Might have been Disney) developed a prejection system using a hemispherical dome with a turret inside. They had some sort of system to measure tracking errors. And then, there was Operation Pinball, the ultimate simulator. Real bombers with real turrets, but the .50 cals have been replaced with ..30 cals firing frangible (break up on impact) bullets. The targets are specially armored P-63s that make passes on the student gunner's airplane. There are acoustic sensors in the P-63s that can hear the impact of the bullets on the skin for measuring the number of hits. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster |
#77
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(ArtKramr) wrote:
Subject: Instructors: is no combat better? --cut-- From: "Tony Volk" I can offer you proof that many pilots thought at least one non-combat instructor was (to quote one letter) "worth [his] weight in gold". Regards, Tony Volk Thank you for your interesting post. And thank you for telling your story without flames, insults or sarcasm. I appreciate that. Arthur Kramer Art, have you noticed the large number of credible posters who seem to be opposing you here?...doesn't it give you pause?...I think that it should. It's quite likely that they're not all wrong and that you're right. You probably should rethink your position. -- -Gord. |
#78
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#79
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#80
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BUFDRVR:
You are being too conservative with your reply. I think your characterization is shared by many- Art has 2 main worldviews: 1) "I was there when the U.S. Made Europe Safe For Socialism therefore I Am An Expert In Everything" and 2) "If You Weren't There You Have No Right To An Opinion On Anything" The sad thing is, many of his generation are not as greedy, foolish, nor self centered as he is. He doesn't realize just how irrational and self absorbed he is. Johari Window strikes again. Guess that comes with a draft. You certainly pick up the Good, Bad, adn Ugly in a draft . . . Steve Swartz "BUFDRVR" wrote in message ... And who have I ever called a coward? To summerize: everyone who never participated in the European Theater from 1943-1945. You couldn't be more vague, non- commital and evasive even if your life depended on it. I hope you fly better than you attack.. Uhh, that wasn't an attack...it was a slight exaggeration of my perception of your attitude. You have called *many* people cowards on this group, both by generalization and personally. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
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