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#21
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Paul Michael Brown wrote:
I collect books about the air war in Southeast Asia circa 1964 to 1975. Here are my favorite works about that period: When Thunder Rolled -- Ed Rasimus. Anything by Jack Broughton. I'll take "Going Downtown" over "Thud Ridge". IMHO, these are the definitive books about the F-105 mission during Rolling Thunder. Ed disagrees with me, but I'll give an honorable mention to the book by Gen. Bell as well. As would I. Gene Basel's "Pak Six" is okay, but less informative in the areas of interest to me.. Over the Beach -- Zalin Grant. The Heart of a Man -- Frank Elkins. Captain Hook -- Wynn Foster. On Yankee Station -- John Nichols & Barrett Tillman Flight of the Intruder -- Stephen Coonts. Wilcox' book (forget the name) about the creation of Top Gun. Perhaps Scream of Eagles? Any novel by Gerry Carroll. These are the best books about naval aviation in that peried. You've left out "Alpha Strike Vietnam," a chronological collection by year of firsthand accounts. Kind of like "Fast Movers," but unlike most such collections, this one concentrates on the attack pilots flying A-1/A-4/A-6/A-7, irather than the fighters. Many of the navy attack types mentioned in various books above were interviewed for the book. And I'd put Tom Wilson's novels, or at least "Termite Hill", which like "Flight of the Intruder" and most first novels by pilots is largely based on the experiences of the author (with one presumes a considerable amount of "improvements" to the story when it comes to the sexual escapades of one of the main characters, Wilson's alter ego), on the list. Wilson was a Weasel Bear at Takhli late '66 - early '67. Linking up with that, Anthony Thornborough's non-fiction book "Iron Hand: Smashing the Enemy's Air Defenses" is a must read on that subject, even though it isn't just dedicated to Vietnam. it contains far better descriptions of the various RWR, jammer and ARM capabilities of that era, with photos showing the equipment and describing its operation than I've found anywhere else. Guy |
#22
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After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Guy Alcala
confessed the following: I'll take "Going Downtown" over "Thud Ridge". I've read Thud Ridge at least 6 times, but Going Downtown only once. I was put off with a minor detail, his description of an RF-101 shootdown in Nov 1964. He sorta kinda has the name right, Bert Walls (IIRC) is actually Burt Waltz (currently residing near Hickam AFB) and some of the cavalier attitude (IMO) he attributed to BW is not how Burt remembers it. Burt does blame his tactics, the target he got shotdown over had a 37mm site which was credited with downing an F-100 (William Martin KIA) that was escorting an RF-101 three days prior. Just before starting engines Burt was handed an additional target (this gunsite road intersection) by his Det Commander George Hall. This target was very close to Burt's last planned target, so the bad guys were given a heads up. Instead of leaving the area and coming back in 10-15 minutes, Burt flew a wide arc above an undercast around the north side to the east for an East-West photo run. Burt flat out says he (obviously) didn't get far enough away and the gunners lit him up as soon as he descended through the cloud deck. His jet was engulfed in flames but ejected unscathed. His parachute descent ended about 80-100' up in the trees. He damn near killed himself when then locally modified personal lowering device (just a long piece of rope) that he had poorly tied to a limb, gave way with Burt about 75' above the ground. Happy ending all around, an Air America helo rescued him. He even has pictures of himself laying on the floor of the helo. It took over a year to get back on flying status. Alas I donated "Going Downtown," to my local library. Guy, unlike you I buy lots of books, parting with them is almost unthinkable, no qualms with GD. As would I. Gene Basel's "Pak Six" is okay, but less informative in the areas of interest to me.. I also like Al Lenski's "Magic 100." You've left out "Alpha Strike Vietnam," a chronological collection by year of firsthand accounts. Kind of like "Fast Movers," but unlike most such collections, this one concentrates on the attack pilots flying A-1/A-4/A-6/A-7, irather than the fighters. I enjoyed ASV, couldn't finish FM (and yet I liked Sherwood's Korean effort "Offiecers in flight Suits."). FM suffered the same fate as GD and now resides in a local library. I really enjoyed was George Marrett's "Cheating Death," combined with Byron Hukee's http://skyraider.org/hook/ and Tilford's "The USAF Search and Rescue in SEA," they make a good trio. Linking up with that, Anthony Thornborough's non-fiction book "Iron Hand: Smashing the Enemy's Air Defenses" is a must read... Agree. Juavt |
#23
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Robey Price wrote:
After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Guy Alcala confessed the following: I'll take "Going Downtown" over "Thud Ridge". I've read Thud Ridge at least 6 times, but Going Downtown only once. I was put off with a minor detail, his description of an RF-101 shootdown in Nov 1964. He sorta kinda has the name right, Bert Walls (IIRC) is actually Burt Waltz (currently residing near Hickam AFB) and some of the cavalier attitude (IMO) he attributed to BW is not how Burt remembers it. snip Alas I donated "Going Downtown," to my local library. Guy, unlike you I buy lots of books, parting with them is almost unthinkable, no qualms with GD. I'd be sleeping in the car with the books overflowing the house if I bought everything I read. I confess to having problems with Broughton's idiosyncratic spelling in "GD" ('Oerlicon,' indeed), and "Thud Ridge" is better writing, but I know the story -- I'm after the technical stuff, and "GD" provides more of that than "TR". As would I. Gene Basel's "Pak Six" is okay, but less informative in the areas of interest to me.. I also like Al Lenski's "Magic 100." Haven't found that one yet. You've left out "Alpha Strike Vietnam," a chronological collection by year of firsthand accounts. Kind of like "Fast Movers," but unlike most such collections, this one concentrates on the attack pilots flying A-1/A-4/A-6/A-7, irather than the fighters. I enjoyed ASV, couldn't finish FM (and yet I liked Sherwood's Korean effort "Offiecers in flight Suits."). FM suffered the same fate as GD and now resides in a local library. I wasn't all that impressed by it either - ISTR that Sherwood lacked aviation background, which tended to throw jarring notes into the book that would bring me up[ short. But I got to read the short form of Ed's 105 tour before he wrote "WTR," plus I though the chapter on Robin Olds was pretty good (for his personality, if not the accuracy of the facts cited). I really enjoyed was George Marrett's "Cheating Death," combined with Byron Hukee's http://skyraider.org/hook/ and Tilford's "The USAF Search and Rescue in SEA," they make a good trio. Haven't read those, but I thought Tilford's "Setup: What the Air Force did in Vietnam and Why" was excellent. Sort of "Clashes," several echelons up. Guy |
#24
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After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Guy Alcala
confessed the following: Haven't read those, but I thought Tilford's "Setup: What the Air Force did in Vietnam and Why" was excellent. Sort of "Clashes," several echelons up. I enjoyed "Setup" which makes for an interesting study along with Adm Sharp's "Strategy for Defeat," and Mark Clodfelter's "The Limits of Air Power." I gotta admit that I think Clodfelter got it right. I had come to similar conclusions (based upon my own research) before I read his book. Heck I read it just a couple years ago and he published it in 1989. Juvat |
#25
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On Sat, 22 May 2004 07:46:55 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote: Robey Price wrote: After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Guy Alcala confessed the following: I'll take "Going Downtown" over "Thud Ridge". I've read Thud Ridge at least 6 times, but Going Downtown only once. I was put off with a minor detail, his description of an RF-101 shootdown in Nov 1964. He sorta kinda has the name right, Bert Walls (IIRC) is actually Burt Waltz (currently residing near Hickam AFB) and some of the cavalier attitude (IMO) he attributed to BW is not how Burt remembers it. I enjoyed Thud Ridge, primarily because at the time it came out it was the only available book telling the story of the F-105 air war. I faulted it for being a bit too heavy on the braggadocio and too heavily weighted into MiGs that were few and far between. It still conveyed a sense of the intensity of the mission and the frustrations that we all felt. Alas I donated "Going Downtown," to my local library. Guy, unlike you I buy lots of books, parting with them is almost unthinkable, no qualms with GD. I couldn't stand Going Downtown. The whole purpose of the book was an excuse for Broughton's actions in the Turkestan scandal. Years after the events he still couldn't acknowledge the impropriety of his actions and he still wanted to blame someone else for the collapse of his promising career. Last year in Las Vegas I had the chance to talk at length with Robin Olds regarding Turkestan. Robin was commanding the 8th TFW at Ubon at the time and was airborne nearby during the strafing. He recounted the specificity of the morning briefing on the location of the ship and the prohibition against attacking it. When he saw the activity going on from his location several miles north along the coast, he knew someone had screwed up big-time. Olds was tasked to conduct the initial investigation and remains quite knowledgeable on the events. I'd be sleeping in the car with the books overflowing the house if I bought everything I read. I confess to having problems with Broughton's idiosyncratic spelling in "GD" ('Oerlicon,' indeed), and "Thud Ridge" is better writing, but I know the story -- I'm after the technical stuff, and "GD" provides more of that than "TR". Seems the "technical stuff" of GD is mostly legalistic and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. As would I. Gene Basel's "Pak Six" is okay, but less informative in the areas of interest to me.. I also like Al Lenski's "Magic 100." Here's the link to Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846 You've left out "Alpha Strike Vietnam," a chronological collection by year of firsthand accounts. Kind of like "Fast Movers," but unlike most such collections, this one concentrates on the attack pilots flying A-1/A-4/A-6/A-7, irather than the fighters. I enjoyed ASV, couldn't finish FM (and yet I liked Sherwood's Korean effort "Offiecers in flight Suits."). FM suffered the same fate as GD and now resides in a local library. I wasn't all that impressed by it either - ISTR that Sherwood lacked aviation background, which tended to throw jarring notes into the book that would bring me up[ short. But I got to read the short form of Ed's 105 tour before he wrote "WTR," plus I though the chapter on Robin Olds was pretty good (for his personality, if not the accuracy of the facts cited). John Sherwood is an historian (Official Historian USN is his job title.) He is an excellent researcher, but not an aviator. Regardless, Fast Movers is a pretty good compilation of oral history interviews. He didn't do too badly in recounting the results of my interviews and could only find one or two minor misstatements. Robin Olds, however, claims he will rip John's beating heart from his chest should they ever meet again. Robin seems upset at the characterization as a hard-drinking, hard-fighting, womanizing, hell-raiser that Sherwood drew. Actually, it seems spot on to me! Sherwood's got a new one out, "Afterburner"--more oral history, this time of USN operations over North Vietnam from Yankee Station. (Not sure about the title--since most of the USN aircraft didn't have A/B, e.g. A-4, A-7, A-6, A-1, A-3D. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#26
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Guy Alcala wrote in message ...
Robey Price wrote: After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Guy Alcala confessed the following: SNIP: I was half-way through "on Yankee Station" when I realized my jaw was aching. I discovered I'd been grinding my teeth in subconscious rage seeing the Navy had gone through the same BS we had experienced at Da Nang, the same ignorance that had killed several dozens of my squadron mates (in 9 fighter squadrons). I raised my head and startled my wife by blurting out "If that SOB MacNamara was here I'd punch him right in the nose!" BTW, I still feel that way . . . Walt BJ |
#27
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#28
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Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2004 07:46:55 GMT, Guy Alcala wrote: snip I'd be sleeping in the car with the books overflowing the house if I bought everything I read. I confess to having problems with Broughton's idiosyncratic spelling in "GD" ('Oerlicon,' indeed), and "Thud Ridge" is better writing, but I know the story -- I'm after the technical stuff, and "GD" provides more of that than "TR". Seems the "technical stuff" of GD is mostly legalistic and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. snip Then you must have skipped the chapter discussing "Project Swatrock" in Korea (where he used those 'Oerlicon' rockets on his F-84), as well as Broughton's opinions on the various Century series fighters, feelings about the Genie (IIRR he spelled it 'Geenie'), etc. That was the stuff that interested me. Guy |
#29
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On Sun, 23 May 2004 06:29:06 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote: Ed Rasimus wrote: On Sat, 22 May 2004 07:46:55 GMT, Guy Alcala wrote: snip -- I'm after the technical stuff, and "GD" provides more of that than "TR". Seems the "technical stuff" of GD is mostly legalistic and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. snip Then you must have skipped the chapter discussing "Project Swatrock" in Korea (where he used those 'Oerlicon' rockets on his F-84), as well as Broughton's opinions on the various Century series fighters, feelings about the Genie (IIRR he spelled it 'Geenie'), etc. That was the stuff that interested me. One of the grad courses I suffered through in my formative years required reading of a half-dozen works (maybe more,) some book-length, some journal articles. In each, the task was to determine the author's "thesis"--the core idea that provided the backbone of the book, and then to ascertain if the author had provided the logically reasoned argument to support that thesis. In "Going Downtown" Broughton's thesis is that he was a victim of the AF's desire to scapegoat him and destroy his career while he was simply doing the proper thing as a commander and supporting his troops. His recounting of his biographical experience is part of the argument of "what a great guy am I." The majority of the book deals with his legal travails as the AF holds him accountable for wilful destruction of the evidence that his troops violated the ROE. The investigation, the arrest, the detainment at Clark, etc. are all Jack's bewailing his treatment. "Everyone knows I was on the fast track to Chief of Staff...." Bah humbug. It's a poor self-serving attempt to rewrite history. I'm hoping I can encourage Olds to get his details of the story included in his book. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#30
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Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2004 06:29:06 GMT, Guy Alcala wrote: Ed Rasimus wrote: On Sat, 22 May 2004 07:46:55 GMT, Guy Alcala wrote: snip -- I'm after the technical stuff, and "GD" provides more of that than "TR". Seems the "technical stuff" of GD is mostly legalistic and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. snip Then you must have skipped the chapter discussing "Project Swatrock" in Korea (where he used those 'Oerlicon' rockets on his F-84), as well as Broughton's opinions on the various Century series fighters, feelings about the Genie (IIRR he spelled it 'Geenie'), etc. That was the stuff that interested me. One of the grad courses I suffered through in my formative years required reading of a half-dozen works (maybe more,) some book-length, some journal articles. In each, the task was to determine the author's "thesis"--the core idea that provided the backbone of the book, and then to ascertain if the author had provided the logically reasoned argument to support that thesis. In "Going Downtown" Broughton's thesis is that he was a victim of the AF's desire to scapegoat him and destroy his career while he was simply doing the proper thing as a commander and supporting his troops. His recounting of his biographical experience is part of the argument of "what a great guy am I." The majority of the book deals with his legal travails as the AF holds him accountable for wilful destruction of the evidence that his troops violated the ROE. While agreeing with your description of _some_ of the book's thesis, I'll merely point out that the chapter describing the Turkestan incident begins on page 207 of a 294 page book, and he continues on from there in the manner you describe. I'd also say that there was a third thesis to the book, that political restrictions on the RoE handicapped our effectiveness. I know that you and virtually every U.S. aircrew member who participated in the war agree. The investigation, the arrest, the detainment at Clark, etc. are all Jack's bewailing his treatment. "Everyone knows I was on the fast track to Chief of Staff...." Sure, and it's tedious. It also seems to accurately describe the atmosphere at the time, at least as far as General Ryan and the higher echelons of command were concerned. Bah humbug. It's a poor self-serving attempt to rewrite history. I'm hoping I can encourage Olds to get his details of the story included in his book. Ed, the number of personal accounts that aren't self-serving attempts to re-write history can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Otherwise, there would be no reason to write them. I agree that Broughton in "GD" is an extreme example of a man with a chip on his shoulder, and 'methinks he doth protest too much'. However, since we once spent a long time discussing your attitude towards Broughton's actions as opposed to, say, Fred Tracy's private jaunt into China with you in tow, and we know we disagree, there's no point in rehashing old arguments. Actually, in "WTR" you seem to have come moved much closer to my point of view on Tracy. Guy |
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