experimental to standard certificate

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:29:01 -0800, Todd wrote:

A few days ago I was looking for something unrelated and came across
this document (a bit old) that may help you. This one is canceled, but
it may help lead you to the current procedure.

The document: 8130.15 dated 09/14/1979 Airworthiness Certification
of "Prematurely" Exported Gliders

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...dance_Library/
rgOrders.nsf/0/A92F26AB98C2B4958625756D00670ACB?
OpenDocument&Highlight=8130


You might also try a google search like: convert type certificate
experimental site:faa.gov

Thats an excellent find, the document deals with exactly the circumstance
that I anticipated having problems with, thank you for posting, and I'm
sure many others out there will gain confidence in being able to put a
glider through a similar procedure now that an official FAA document
details a route through the process... updating it is the next
challenge :-)

Many thanks,

Peter

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:34:56 -0800, unclhank wrote:

On Jan 12, 11:02Â*pm, shkdriver
wrote:
Anyone ever purchase a used glider with an experimental certificate,say
for example, an ASW 19b, and change to a standard certificate? I
understand that some gliders were imported and flown as experimental
such as jantars, due to govermental restrictions on reciprocal
airworthiness circumstance. The ASW 19b has been given U.S. standard
certificates. Just wondering
Scott W.

--
shkdriver

The question I would ask is why?
'19 is old enough that it would almost certainly have a permanent
Experimental C of A. Thus no need for program letters and such.
Condition inspection by A&P, IA not required. I would be astonished if
it would add any value. Only reason I can think of might be a life
insurance policy that says - no experimental aircraft.
FWIW
UH

I believe that its not possible to export a glider (actually not possible
to obtain an Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from the USA), for
an aircraft that is on the experimental register. The FAA will only issue
them for standard airworthiness compliant aircraft.

So, in my case, if I ever decided to take a glider back to England, I'd
have to go through this process before I could think about shipping it.

Peter

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:45:18 +0000, Peter wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:29:01 -0800, Todd wrote:

A few days ago I was looking for something unrelated and came across
this document (a bit old) that may help you. This one is canceled, but
it may help lead you to the current procedure.

The document: 8130.15 dated 09/14/1979 Airworthiness Certification
of "Prematurely" Exported Gliders

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...dance_Library/
rgOrders.nsf/0/A92F26AB98C2B4958625756D00670ACB?
OpenDocument&Highlight=8130


You might also try a google search like: convert type certificate
experimental site:faa.gov

Thats an excellent find, the document deals with exactly the
circumstance that I anticipated having problems with, thank you for
posting, and I'm sure many others out there will gain confidence in
being able to put a glider through a similar procedure now that an
official FAA document details a route through the process... updating it
is the next challenge :-)

Many thanks,

Peter

Having taken a look through the FAA website I think form 8130.2F mod4,
which is current, has the appropriate language and procedures in it...
around page 56-63, and seems to make this transition possible even if the
TCDS was issued after the glider was imported and is not referred to on
the original Export CofA.

Peter

On Jan 14, 12:48*am, Peter wrote:

I believe that its not possible to export a glider (actually not possible
to obtain an Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from the USA), for
an aircraft that is on the experimental register. The FAA will only issue
them for standard airworthiness compliant aircraft.


That seems strange. The glider entered USA without any US
airworthiness certification but it cannot leave?

Is it not possible, for example, to send a German manufactured glider
with a US experimental certificate, back to Germany for repairs?

Is this a US export restriction, or a UK import restriction?

Can the glider just be de-registered in US and re-registered or re-
certified in UK based on the original LBA certification?

I'm interested since I may find myself in the same situation one day.

Andy

On Jan 13, 5:34*pm, wrote:
On Jan 12, 11:02*pm, shkdriver
wrote:

Anyone ever purchase a used glider with an experimental certificate,say
for example, an ASW 19b, and change to a standard certificate?
I understand that some gliders were imported and flown as
experimental such as jantars, due to govermental restrictions on
reciprocal airworthiness circumstance.
The ASW 19b has been given U.S. standard certificates.
Just wondering
Scott W.

--
shkdriver

The question I would ask is why?
'19 is old enough that it would almost certainly have a permanent
Experimental C of A. Thus no need for program letters and such.
Condition inspection by A&P, IA not required.
I would be astonished if it would add any value.
Only reason I can think of might be a life insurance policy that says
- no experimental aircraft.
FWIW
UH

Thank you! I've been DYING to ask that very question. I'm a relative
noob in the arena of glider ownership. I've owned an experimental
since 2004, and can't for the life of me see any advantage to having a
type certificate.

On Jan 14, 10:06*am, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
On Jan 13, 5:34*pm, wrote:





On Jan 12, 11:02*pm, shkdriver
wrote:

Anyone ever purchase a used glider with an experimental certificate,say
for example, an ASW 19b, and change to a standard certificate?
I understand that some gliders were imported and flown as
experimental such as jantars, due to govermental restrictions on
reciprocal airworthiness circumstance.
The ASW 19b has been given U.S. standard certificates.
Just wondering
Scott W.

--
shkdriver

The question I would ask is why?
'19 is old enough that it would almost certainly have a permanent
Experimental C of A. Thus no need for program letters and such.
Condition inspection by A&P, IA not required.
I would be astonished if it would add any value.
Only reason I can think of might be a life insurance policy that says
- no experimental aircraft.
FWIW
UH

Thank you! *I've been DYING to ask that very question. *I'm a relative
noob in the arena of glider ownership. *I've owned an experimental
since 2004, and can't for the life of me see any advantage to having a
type certificate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The only potential advantage may be avoiding an FAA inspector deciding
he has to do a check on your Ex glider every year which sounds like it
could be coming in some areas.
The tone I get from our local "helpers" is that they feel they need to
provide significant supervision of how aircraft licensed in this
catagory are used. They don't seem to be able to disciminate between a
glider flying at a local airport and a MIG flying at an airshow.
That said, if maintenance and records are done right, there should be
no issue other than making ship available for inspection.
Looks like a way for inspectors to get out of the office and appear to
be doing something.
UH

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:55:41 -0800, Andy wrote:

On Jan 14, 12:48Â*am, Peter wrote:

I believe that its not possible to export a glider (actually not
possible to obtain an Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from the
USA), for an aircraft that is on the experimental register. The FAA
will only issue them for standard airworthiness compliant aircraft.


That seems strange. The glider entered USA without any US airworthiness
certification but it cannot leave?

No, you have the wrong end of the stick.

The glider entered the USA with a German Certificate of Airworthiness for
Export, this was supplied by the manufacturer as part of its export
process (without which I doubt it would even get on the US experimental
register) and was subsequently registered in the USA with an experimental
Airworthiness (since at the time of import there was no TCDS and no way
to get onto the Standard register.


Is it not possible, for example, to send a German manufactured glider
with a US experimental certificate, back to Germany for repairs?

Of course, its possible to ship it to Germany or most other places for
repair/holidays/any number of reasons, but it cannot be PERMANENTLY
exported with an FAA Certificate of Airworthiness or Export unless it is
transitioned from an FAA Standard Category Airworthiness Certificate.
You might be able to keep it on the US register in the other country and
have a US qualified Inspector give it the required annuals etc, but thats
likely to be costly and insurance may be a problem, but most countries
are likely to require a long term aircraft transition to the local
register eventually.


Is this a US export restriction, or a UK import restriction?

Both I believe.
US export, the FAA will only grant the Export CofA if they can be assured
the aircraft is 'safe' when it leaves the USA, ie. has a current Standard
Category CofA at the time export is applied for.
UK import, the aircraft must be documented properly in order for it to be
accepted onto the EASA Airworthiness Register, proper docs include export
CofA from the country its coming from, for similar reasons, it must be
'safe' which means Export CofA.


Can the glider just be de-registered in US and re-registered or re-
certified in UK based on the original LBA certification?

I doubt it, there would be a huge paperwork gap that would raise
questions. Even if it could be done, I doubt I'd buy even a used car with
such a document gap.


I'm interested since I may find myself in the same situation one day.

Andy

Good luck with that, I have learned a lot in my research so far and no
doubt have more to learn...

Peter

Peter wrote:


Of course, its possible to ship it to Germany or most other places for
repair/holidays/any number of reasons, but it cannot be PERMANENTLY
exported with an FAA Certificate of Airworthiness or Export unless it is
transitioned from an FAA Standard Category Airworthiness Certificate.
You might be able to keep it on the US register in the other country and
have a US qualified Inspector give it the required annuals etc, but thats
likely to be costly and insurance may be a problem, but most countries
are likely to require a long term aircraft transition to the local
register eventually.

Is this a US export restriction, or a UK import restriction?

Both I believe.
US export, the FAA will only grant the Export CofA if they can be assured
the aircraft is 'safe' when it leaves the USA, ie. has a current Standard
Category CofA at the time export is applied for.
UK import, the aircraft must be documented properly in order for it to be
accepted onto the EASA Airworthiness Register, proper docs include export
CofA from the country its coming from, for similar reasons, it must be
'safe' which means Export CofA.

Can the glider just be dase-registered in US and re-registered or re-
certified in UK based on the original LBA certification?

I doubt it, there would be a huge paperwork gap that would raise
questions. Even if it could be done, I doubt I'd buy even a used car with
such a document gap.

I'm interested since I may find myself in the same situation one day.

Andy

Good luck with that, I have learned a lot in my research so far and no
doubt have more to learn...

Peter


I am pretty sure this is not true if you export to New Zealand. I
exported an experimental LS-3 to NZ a few years ago, it now is flying in
NZ, and there was no Export C of A.

Therefore, a "document gap" is possible, at least in NZ.

On Jan 16, 8:50*am, Greg Arnold wrote:

I am pretty sure this is not true if you export to New Zealand. *I
exported an experimental LS-3 to NZ a few years ago, it now is flying in
NZ, and there was no Export C of A.

Therefore, a "document gap" is possible, at least in NZ.

I found that FAA provides the aircraft import requirements for various
states. UK is lumped in with other EU counties in this doc:

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert...t/media/EU.pdf

My take from this is that for export to UK the documentation
requirements are driven by EASA not FAA.

Does anyone know of a German built glider with US experimental
certificate being imported from US to UK and being got though all the
paperwork to get a UK registration under the current EASA rules?

requirements for importing to other countries can be found here

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert...sp_req_import/

It seems that NZ also requires an export airworthiness certification
but it does not state explicitly that it must be issued by US. Is it
possible that the original LBA export certificate is acceptable?

Exporting US registered gliders has been common at times when the
dollar is weak. Has this stopped happening because the export/import
regs cannot be met?

Andy

On Jan 16, 10:11*am, Andy wrote:
On Jan 16, 8:50*am, Greg Arnold wrote:

I am pretty sure this is not true if you export to New Zealand. *I
exported an experimental LS-3 to NZ a few years ago, it now is flying in
NZ, and there was no Export C of A.

Therefore, a "document gap" is possible, at least in NZ.

I found that FAA provides the aircraft import requirements for various
states. *UK is lumped in with other EU counties in this doc:

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert...rt_aw_proc/sp_...

My take from this is that for export to UK the documentation
requirements are driven by EASA not FAA.

Does anyone know of a German built glider with US experimental
certificate being imported from US to UK and being got though all the
paperwork to get a UK registration under the current EASA rules?

requirements for importing to other countries can be found here

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert...rt_aw_proc/sp_...

It seems that NZ also requires an export airworthiness certification
but it does not state explicitly that it must be issued by US. *Is it
possible that the original LBA export certificate is acceptable?

Exporting US registered gliders has been common at times when the
dollar is weak. *Has this stopped happening because the export/import
regs cannot be met?

Andy

AFAIK, the only Export C of A we are concerned with in the US is the
original from the country of manufacture when there is a TCDS and a
standard airworthiness.

On Jan 16, 1:21 am, Peter wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:55:41 -0800, Andy wrote:
On Jan 14, 12:48 am, Peter wrote:

I believe that its not possible to export a glider (actually not
possible to obtain an Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from the
USA), for an aircraft that is on the experimental register. The FAA
will only issue them for standard airworthiness compliant aircraft.

That seems strange. The glider entered USA without any US airworthiness
certification but it cannot leave?

No, you have the wrong end of the stick.

The glider entered the USA with a German Certificate of Airworthiness for
Export, this was supplied by the manufacturer as part of its export
process (without which I doubt it would even get on the US experimental
register) and was subsequently registered in the USA with an experimental
Airworthiness (since at the time of import there was no TCDS and no way
to get onto the Standard register.

Export C of A is not required if a glider is initially registered as
experimental in the US. There are gliders that are certificated in
some countries, but not in the US, LAK-12 for example. For a standard
certificate and export C of A or compliance letter from the country of
manufacture is required. So it follows that exporting a US registered
experimental is not eligible for an export C of A. That said, the
original export C of A should satisfy the requirement, it does for US
export if complete logbooks are included. A quick perusal of 14CFR21
seems to indicate that export CofA's and tags on components only apply
to US production. Can you cite a reference that says an export C of A
would be issued on foreign manufacture?

For example, a couple of years ago I picked up an L-13 from Canada for
a friend. I looked over the logbooks. The glider had been originally
imported into the US and the Czech export C of A was included. The
glider logged about 75 hours in the US and was exported to Canada.
There was no evidence of a US export C of A. The glider was grounded
at 4724.5 hours in Canada as the club was unwilling to complete
another extension inspection to extend the life by 500 hours in
Canada. The glider was re-imported to the US without a Canadian
export C of A. The bulletins limiting the service life of this type
are accepted in some countries, but are none directive in the US.
AD's were never created and examples are known to be flying with over
9,000 hours. Several include parts from three or more salvages. But
the important document in this chain was the original Czech export C
of A and complete log books, several volumes, that recorded every
flight.

When I last departed the UK, I looked at bringing an IS28-B2 with me.
British Aerospace once bought a half dozen for engineering training.
They were low time and in 'as new' conditon, but at the time there was
a 'shelf life', which has been reasonably dealt with. At that time,
the export C of A from Romania was required and was in the glider
records.

If a German built glider had an export C of A, but was US
experimental, the real problem would seem to be with any modifications
that weren't approved by the manufacturer, e.g. winglets. If they
were factory mods that were added in the US, then a compliance letter
from Germany might suffice, but might also require a German
inspection. When the BGA controlled UK gliding, it would be a simple
matter for the BGA Technical Committee to approve the modification.
Under EASA, no idea what that implies.

Frank Whiteley