Bible-beater pilots

Robert,

that it is the cause of the belief system that they
monger power.


I can't see that I said that.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Tell them you believe that God created the big boom, that usually get's them
thinking.
--
Jim Burns III

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"Trent Moorehead" wrote in message
...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:MEpvb.267465$Fm2.280789@attbi_s04...

When I find myself in a situation such as yours Jay, I cannot help but
to
"debate" if you like, the existance of God

If I'm sitting around a camp fire, I'm the same way. I'll debate
religion
until I run out of breath.

I'm afraid that debating the existence of God would be quite a waste of
breath for it isn't possible to prove or disprove. And doing so would be
fruitless because religion deals with beliefs and you'll never convince a
truly religious person that their beliefs are unfounded. Your only success
will be in ****ing them off. Now, if they are trying to convert/convince
you
then they deserve what they get.

My Dad's advice for me has always been (he's an agnostic) "If you want to
remain friends with someone, never discuss religion or politics." His
advice
has worked well for me for 38 years now.

I would say that debating God's existence around a campfire would be quite
a
waste of a good campfire.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:16:52 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:


Sadly, I must conclude that you are sincere. I know this is going down an
off-topic sink hole, but I would be interested to hear another pilot (I
assume you are a pilot, if you're here?) give a cogent, logical,
scientifically-proven defense of your beliefs.

Is that possible?

About the only thing I could accomplish on those terms is to relegate
all belief systems, including atheisms and agnosticisms, to the
logical scrap heap.

Except *mine*, of course, since *mine* makes perfect sense to *me*.
(Except where it doesn't, but like many believers I usually don't
worry that I have all the answers to all the questions.) But you've
defined away (maybe) the possibility of accepting premises you're not
willing to accept, the effort is probably fruitless.

BTAIM, the central notion in my own belief system is that no matter
what else, prayer works. I'm not talking about this or that form of
prayer. I'm not talking about asking for any old thing from God and
getting it. There's no magic set of words, and the conclusion is not
based on one lightning moment of conversion, it's based on a lifetime
of doing it. I'm talking about building a relationship with a real
person.

Simply that God is real, that He's pretty tolerant of
misunderstandings about Him, and that if you want to know more, He'll
lead you to the truth. He isn't described completely in any book of
scripture I know about, *including* the Bible. He hasn't invested
Godlike Flawlessness in any man, to lead us all to Heaven, though I do
not deny the notion that He inspires men, and even organizes them,
when He has something He wants to show us all.

I know that's not much to go on, but personally I don't have
stewardship over any other adult's decisions. Can't make you do
anything. Can't prove God exists or doesn't exist, since the only
experimentation I know about depends very unscientifically on the
motivations of the experimenter. The results manifest not in physical
phenomena, but in feeling coupled with clear thinking. If it improves
the quality of your life and becomes precious to you, God is the
source of it.

Sorry.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

Jay, if you were going about your business and they stopped you on the
street, I'd see your point. But you voluntarily joined a couple of
complete strangers for lunch. When you do that, you've got to be
prepared for surprises. You may not agree with their beliefs or
especially how they expressed them, but this is still America.
Personally, I believe what I believe and if anyone tries to change my
mind, I either listen or move on. My guess is that they got you
thinking about something you don't want to deal with.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.



Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to the
heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a nightmare"
feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them in
disbelief.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:55:30 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Of course, if indeed I should end up standing in front of St. Peter or
Jesus on Judgement Day, it will be a major "Oops"-moment. ;-)

Of course, would a good God condemn you to eternal damnation for making a
75-year mistake?

Nope. The quasi-Christian doctrines of "instant Hell" are false, IMO.
(So is the Aristotlean notion of eternity; we humans don't have the
best picture of the topology of the universe, after all...)

I think if Thomas is willing to *say* "Oops" at that moment, that'll
speak very favorably to him.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:07:43 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

nor be required to give away your airplane and all your other worldly
posessions (Matthew 19:16-21. See also Luke 12:33)
nor sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7-10)

I'm always impressed with how you guys can DO that. How the HECK do you
remember the verses and chapters in such detail?

Search engines. I can do it, too! (And, part of my upbringing included
being required to commit 160 passages of scripture to memory long
enough to recite it back to a teacher.)

But what you've probably seen here, since it's very similar to many of
the atheist missives I've seen trying to steer people clear of the
Bible through a combination of out-of-context quoting and the fallacy
of misleading vividness, is paraphrased from something that's been
around for a long, long time.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

Exactly the tactic I take with un announced and unwanted salesmen.

I'm here to see the person in charge of maintenence supplies.
"Tough"
Huh? What do you mean? Can I see him?
"No"
Well, I need his name.
"Tough"
Can I get his name?
"If he had wanted something you are selling, he would have contacted you
and you'd already know his name"
But he called wanting some information.
"If he called you, you should know his name."
I didn't write it down.
"Why would I let my maintenence man buy something from a man that can't
write?"
I mean I forgot to write it down.
"Why would I let my maintenence man buy something from a man with no
memory?"
Can I see him or at least talk to him?
"I asume that you can see, so if I let you talk to him you no doubt
would be able to see him, unless he requires you to be blind folded but you
still can't talk to him"
Why won't you let me see him?
"Because he earns about 10 times as much as your trailer trash scumbag
ass does and if I let you see him, you will be costing more money than what
ever you're trying to peddle costs!"

Can I leave my card?
"No, did I mention that you are on private property?"
What do you mean?
"This is private property, you weren't invited, so you're traspassing"
Huh?
"Do you have a village solicitation permit?"
Huh?
"Did you see the sign on the edge of town that says permit required for
solicitation?"

....and on and on and on....

Sometimes it's the funnest part of my day.
--
Jim Burns III

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"Dean Wilkinson" wrote in message
m...
Hi Jay,

Been there, done that. Back in college I had several encounters like
you describe. The first time it was almost an unreal experience and I
felt the ear burning embarassement that you describe. After that, I
learned to be rude as hell to people like that. I have even begun to
take pleasure in saying as absurd and inflamatory statements as
possible to mess with them. Be creative, it can be a gas. Don't be
afraid to be outlandish in your statements or behavior, but above all
else be as contrary and contradicatory as possible!

Dean

"Robert Perkins" wrote in message


Fights and wars have broken out over
things other than religion, and no society goes to war for that reason
alone. It's too much work!

I don't know. If a modern (albeit minor) war could be waged over a soccer
match, I'm thinking that religion would be a far more serious matter in
societies of centuries ago.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:21:26 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

I guess I had assumed that anyone smart
enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers.

The best proselyting is done by showing the example of a happy life.

There is, IMO, no inconsistency to be found by finding a confessed
Protestant in a casino. For so many denominations the only requirement
is that little prayer. Plenty of Baptist grammas go to Vegas, I think.

I still have a
hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
thing.

Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

You, in your cordial Midwestern way, fed a pair of Christian
proseletyzers your time and attention. You gave them an impression of
interest that they, in their zeal, failed to notice was more than just
good Midwestern friendliness.

They take advantage of that, and it's certainly not your fault.

What I usually do is raise the ante. I've got a pretty strong set of
beliefs, so I listen to what they have to say and then make sure they
know that I'm very committed to my own belief system, and would they
like to know more about that?

Another thing that works nicely is, "I know you believe that, guys,
but I think your premise is simply incorrect and unprovable, and what
I'm looking for must be provable."

If not, then, "I guess our conversation is concluded, gentlemen. Have
a nice flight home," and off we go.

Rob


--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:48:49 -0500, "John Gaquin"
wrote:

What chip am I carrying?

Re-read your own post. The whole tone is one of over-reaction.

Is not. I would have had a very similar initial reaction to that kind
of witnessing. It's rare enough that it's a surprise whenever I find
it.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card