No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?

or below the altitude to which the departing a/c was cleared...Is
that what the tower said could happen?

That's what I remember of the conversation. It's been a couple of
months.

I suspect they see enough pilots not flying ODPs that they don't take
it into consideration.

Still, I'm sure similar situations occur almost everywhere. Even when
there's no climb in hold, there are DP dings that could take you into
the flight path of other aircraft if ATC didn't expect you to fly it.

d like to check wih some ATC safety folk that I know to verify that
this sort of thing is n accord with proper procedure.

I'd be interested to know as well, given the implication that the ODP
is always protected.

Greg Esres wrote:
you receive a vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or
question it if you feel it is unsafe

What tower would give you is not a vector; it's a heading.

No, it's a vector.

Greg Esres wrote:

Is there any practical difference?

Yes...only radar vectors put the burden of obstacle clearance on the
controller. And radar vectors require radar contact.

So a tower guy giving me a heading isn't able to provide me with any
promise of obstacle clearance.

Tower guys don't give headings, they give vectors

wrote:



And, at a mountain airport, until you reach MVA on departure, even the
radar controller and you are in a obstacle-clearance haze.

Mountain airport, non mountain airport it doesn't matter. There is no haze.

Greg Esres wrote:

That's not always the case. And to make matters worse, the pilot
has no way of knowing without direct knowledge.

When would that not be the case? And if it were the case, the pilot
must certainly know. If you don't hear the words "radar contact"
followed by a heading, then you're not being vectored.

No. A heading issued with a takeoff clearance is a vector.

assessed for a DVA. These vectors are below the MVA

But these vectors are authorized only for radar facilities.

From the .65:
-------snip-------------
At those locations where diverse vector areas (DVA) have been
established, terminal RADAR [emphasis mine] facilities may vector
aircraft below the MVA/MIA within those areas and along those routes
described in facility directives.
-------snip-------------

in the case of radar departures (and this assumes you are at a radar
facility), the initial heading (the one given you by the tower prior
to departure) will not be preceded by those words, and yet ATC will
still be on the hook for obstacle clearance.

It's unclear to me what "on the hook" for obstacle clearance means.
How can tower provide what it has no ability to provide? The heading
they give you is presumed safe until departure can vector you. How
long can you fly the heading and be safe? Are there any criteria for
this?

In his "Radar Services Terminated" article, Wally seems to indicate
that this is a gray area. He apparently only feels 100% comfortable
with a non-radar heading assignment when the area is 40:1 clear, as
indicated by the lack of an IFR departure procedure.

No, it's a vector.

Then why does the .65 call it a heading?

---------snip--------------
Before departure, assign the initial heading to be flown if a
departing aircraft is to be vectored immediately after takeoff.
---------snip--------------

If the heading is something that you do until you can be vectored,
then it's not a vector.

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...
may be flown *without ATC clearance*

I said coordination, not clearance.

If the ODP says go to a fix, and climb in a holding pattern, and
Center already has someone holding there, then you've created a
problem.


I disagree. If ATC launches you IFR and you get with an aircraft holding at
a conflicting IFR altitude, then ATC has had an operational error. The
controller is responsible for deconflicting you from traffic. He/she
created their own problem by clearing you into conflicting traffic unless
they can prove you deviated from your IFR clearance.

Chip, ZTL

Tower guys don't give headings, they give vectors

Nonsense. Vectors require radar contact, and lots of towers aren't
associated at all with any radar facility.

He/she created their own problem by clearing you into conflicting
traffic unless they can prove you deviated from your IFR clearance.

Do you feel that it's ATC's responsibility to protect the route of the
obstacle departure procedure, even when it's not included in the
pilot's clearance and does not lie in his route of flight?

Even if it is ATC's responsibility do you not think it prudent of the
pilot to keep ATC informed of what he intends to do, as part of the
cooperative spirit?