Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?

Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Date: 3/2/04 12:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes
comes down to the same thing There are those of us who fought and those who
didn't.

No, Art.

There are those who fought: those who trained and were ready, but
weren't called: those who would have enlisted and fought if called: and
those who would refuse.

You have a a lot to answer for.

In that case so do I, but I'm not sure why. (Wore uniform, took the
Queen's shilling, and now advise and support the frontline. Not my fault
they haven't had a war that they wanted me for combat duty in.)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk


Thren there ar ehtose who stepped forward and volunteered for the Air Force,
the Marine Corps, the Paratroopers. Then there are those who didn't. They just
waited to be called many hoping they never would be. I suggest that there is a
difference between these two calibers of men. No offense of course.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In message , ArtKramr
writes
There are those who fought: those who trained and were ready, but
weren't called: those who would have enlisted and fought if called: and
those who would refuse.

You have a a lot to answer for.

In that case so do I, but I'm not sure why. (Wore uniform, took the
Queen's shilling, and now advise and support the frontline. Not my fault
they haven't had a war that they wanted me for combat duty in.)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk


Thren there ar ehtose who stepped forward and volunteered for the Air Force,
the Marine Corps, the Paratroopers.

Art, I *work* with Royal Marines, Paras and members of other specialist
units. They accept my experience and trust my judgement in my fields of
expertise, just as I have complete faith in theirs.

Many of them have not seen combat, even when other members of their unit
have (assigned to other duties, in the wrong battalion, whatever).
Should we - for an example - denigrate the courage of 1 Para because
they weren't sent to the Falklands? Are they "less brave" than, for
example, the Blues and Royals or the Scots Guards, who despite not being
"Air Force, Marines or Paras" went and fought?

We thankfully don't have to do total wars these days: some regiments are
sent to a conflict, others have other missions to cover.

Then there are those who didn't.
They just
waited to be called many hoping they never would be. I suggest that there is a
difference between these two calibers of men. No offense of course.

I volunteered for the RAF. They told me that I couldn't join as aircrew
because my eyesight wasn't good enough. I offered to join as an engineer
officer and they told me to come back once I had my engineering degree:
but by then we'd had "Options for Change" and they'd frozen recruitment,
and I got a job designing and building their weapons instead.

I signed up for the part-time Army in the meantime, though it seems that
doesn't count either because you only recognise one regiment: I look
forward to seeing you explain to my cousin (PWRR, but was attached to
the Black Watch for Telic, got an unscheduled self-drive holiday in
Basra) that he's "not a real soldier" because he didn't go Para.


I signed up and served, and made myself ready to go: and a few years on
I signed up in a different capacity and am ready to march to the colours
again. I'm not really sure what more I'm supposed to do: start a war
just so I can fight in it, perchance?

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Date: 3/2/04 1:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes
There are those who fought: those who trained and were ready, but
weren't called: those who would have enlisted and fought if called: and
those who would refuse.

You have a a lot to answer for.

In that case so do I, but I'm not sure why. (Wore uniform, took the
Queen's shilling, and now advise and support the frontline. Not my fault
they haven't had a war that they wanted me for combat duty in.)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk


Thren there ar ehtose who stepped forward and volunteered for the Air Force,
the Marine Corps, the Paratroopers.

Art, I *work* with Royal Marines, Paras and members of other specialist
units. They accept my experience and trust my judgement in my fields of
expertise, just as I have complete faith in theirs.

Many of them have not seen combat, even when other members of their unit
have (assigned to other duties, in the wrong battalion, whatever).
Should we - for an example - denigrate the courage of 1 Para because
they weren't sent to the Falklands? Are they "less brave" than, for
example, the Blues and Royals or the Scots Guards, who despite not being
"Air Force, Marines or Paras" went and fought?

We thankfully don't have to do total wars these days: some regiments are
sent to a conflict, others have other missions to cover.

Then there are those who didn't.
They just
waited to be called many hoping they never would be. I suggest that there
is a
difference between these two calibers of men. No offense of course.

I volunteered for the RAF. They told me that I couldn't join as aircrew
because my eyesight wasn't good enough. I offered to join as an engineer
officer and they told me to come back once I had my engineering degree:
but by then we'd had "Options for Change" and they'd frozen recruitment,
and I got a job designing and building their weapons instead.

I signed up for the part-time Army in the meantime, though it seems that
doesn't count either because you only recognise one regiment: I look
forward to seeing you explain to my cousin (PWRR, but was attached to
the Black Watch for Telic, got an unscheduled self-drive holiday in
Basra) that he's "not a real soldier" because he didn't go Para.


I signed up and served, and made myself ready to go: and a few years on
I signed up in a different capacity and am ready to march to the colours
again. I'm not really sure what more I'm supposed to do: start a war
just so I can fight in it, perchance?

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

They also serve who stand and wait. How would they have done in combat?. We
will never know will we?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

They also serve who stand and wait. How would they have done in combat?.
We
will never know will we?

Art, it seems your dividing line between glory and those of a lesser caliber
is combat/no combat. i.e. being shot at counts. Everything else somewhat
less worthy.

You know as well as most reading this that military personnel don't get to
choose their war, or often even their job. No matter how many people
volunteer for the Green Berets, the military *still* needs supply troops,
bomb loaders, crew chiefs, etc, etc, etc.

Of the many thousands of bombs I loaded in my career, none was dropped in
anger. Not a one. Yet I served during several combat actions. Libya,
Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Iraq. How did THAT happen? Why didn't I
'volunteer' for El Dorado Canyon, or Desert Storm? Because that's not the
way it works anymore. My mission was elsewhere. Why didn't the F-16 pilots
at Ramstein 'volunteer' for Desert Storm? Because that's not the way it
works anymore. They had their own mission with the 86th FW in Germany. Not
everyone gets to go, no matter how bad they want it.

What would you say to Willie the Wolfs' crew chief? Or the bomb loaders? Or
the supply troop that ensured you had good tires? Or the logistics officer
ensuring the entire 8th AF had fresh tires?

Would you call them a lesser caliber of men, simply because they were not
shot at?

No. You would shake their hand, buy them a beer, and thank them for helping
you in *your* mission. They had theirs, you had yours. At least, that's what
I hope you'd do.

Now please extend the same respect to all those others who did serve
honorably, volunteer or draftee, in war or in peace.

Pete

Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Pete"
Date: 3/2/04 4:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote

They also serve who stand and wait. How would they have done in combat?.
We
will never know will we?

Art, it seems your dividing line between glory and those of a lesser caliber
is combat/no combat. i.e. being shot at counts. Everything else somewhat
less worthy.

You know as well as most reading this that military personnel don't get to
choose their war, or often even their job. No matter how many people
volunteer for the Green Berets, the military *still* needs supply troops,
bomb loaders, crew chiefs, etc, etc, etc.

Of the many thousands of bombs I loaded in my career, none was dropped in
anger. Not a one. Yet I served during several combat actions. Libya,
Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Iraq. How did THAT happen? Why didn't I
'volunteer' for El Dorado Canyon, or Desert Storm? Because that's not the
way it works anymore. My mission was elsewhere. Why didn't the F-16 pilots
at Ramstein 'volunteer' for Desert Storm? Because that's not the way it
works anymore. They had their own mission with the 86th FW in Germany. Not
everyone gets to go, no matter how bad they want it.

What would you say to Willie the Wolfs' crew chief? Or the bomb loaders? Or
the supply troop that ensured you had good tires? Or the logistics officer
ensuring the entire 8th AF had fresh tires?

Would you call them a lesser caliber of men, simply because they were not
shot at?

No. You would shake their hand, buy them a beer, and thank them for helping
you in *your* mission. They had theirs, you had yours. At least, that's what
I hope you'd do.

Now please extend the same respect to all those others who did serve
honorably, volunteer or draftee, in war or in peace.

Pete


Yes. Everything you say is correct. But I must be totally honest. As we rushed
down the runway and lifted off and Willie's wheels came up I would look down at
those on the ground that we were leaving behind and I would think how they will
still be alive tonight. And they would go home after the war and live a full
rich lives with families and friends. And I didn't know for sure that I would
ever see this airfield again or live to see the sunrise tomorrow morning. These
are thoughts I had. And these thoughts create a thin line that separates
those who were with me and those who stayed behind on the ground. And I can't
deny in good conscience having those feelings. And I think many who flew with
me had exactly the same feelings whether they admit it or not. It's a very
thin line of separation. But a very line it is. Can you understand that?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

It's a very
thin line of separation. But a very line it is. Can you understand that?

Yes, we can. Until you denigrate those on the other side of your line.

Pete

"Pete" wrote:


"ArtKramr" wrote

It's a very
thin line of separation. But a very line it is. Can you understand that?

Yes, we can. Until you denigrate those on the other side of your line.

Pete


Close...there is no line actually, there's just those people who
support you, while being likewise supported themselves, and
expecting you to do your part by providing support for others
ahead of you.

When you denigrate them they can no longer support you and large
groups falter.

We all have our place in the scheme of things. Almost all of us
provide support for others while being supported ourselves by yet
others. If you think one level is 'more important' than another
level then you need to stand back and look at the whole
enchilada.

It all works like a well oiled machine 'till some jackass get's
too big for his breeches and puts a crimp in the works. He then
changes from as asset to a liability. Where do you fit Art?
--

-Gord.

Apparently in "Arts war" the rear areas ( England for instance) never got
bombed and those cowardly ground crews always "live to see the sunrise
tomorrow morning". Pitty those cowardly fitters and loaders didnt hitch a
ride on the outside of Arts plane and throw hammers and spanners at nasty
old "jerry".

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Pete"
Date: 3/2/04 4:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote

They also serve who stand and wait. How would they have done in
combat?.
We
will never know will we?

Art, it seems your dividing line between glory and those of a lesser
caliber
is combat/no combat. i.e. being shot at counts. Everything else somewhat
less worthy.

You know as well as most reading this that military personnel don't get
to
choose their war, or often even their job. No matter how many people
volunteer for the Green Berets, the military *still* needs supply troops,
bomb loaders, crew chiefs, etc, etc, etc.

Of the many thousands of bombs I loaded in my career, none was dropped in
anger. Not a one. Yet I served during several combat actions. Libya,
Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Iraq. How did THAT happen? Why didn't I
'volunteer' for El Dorado Canyon, or Desert Storm? Because that's not the
way it works anymore. My mission was elsewhere. Why didn't the F-16
pilots
at Ramstein 'volunteer' for Desert Storm? Because that's not the way it
works anymore. They had their own mission with the 86th FW in Germany.
Not
everyone gets to go, no matter how bad they want it.

What would you say to Willie the Wolfs' crew chief? Or the bomb loaders?
Or
the supply troop that ensured you had good tires? Or the logistics
officer
ensuring the entire 8th AF had fresh tires?

Would you call them a lesser caliber of men, simply because they were not
shot at?

No. You would shake their hand, buy them a beer, and thank them for
helping
you in *your* mission. They had theirs, you had yours. At least, that's
what
I hope you'd do.

Now please extend the same respect to all those others who did serve
honorably, volunteer or draftee, in war or in peace.

Pete


Yes. Everything you say is correct. But I must be totally honest. As we
rushed
down the runway and lifted off and Willie's wheels came up I would look
down at
those on the ground that we were leaving behind and I would think how they
will
still be alive tonight. And they would go home after the war and live a
full
rich lives with families and friends. And I didn't know for sure that I
would
ever see this airfield again or live to see the sunrise tomorrow morning.
These
are thoughts I had. And these thoughts create a thin line that
separates
those who were with me and those who stayed behind on the ground. And I
can't
deny in good conscience having those feelings. And I think many who flew
with
me had exactly the same feelings whether they admit it or not. It's a
very
thin line of separation. But a very line it is. Can you understand that?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer