ASG-29E vs. JS-1Jet Sustainer

I am very interested in purchasing one or the other and having difficulty weighing the merits each of because of no direct experience with either. I would like to have some advice concerning reliability, resale values, performance and build quality. Can I compare apples and apples with these two?

On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 4:36:21 PM UTC-5, Gerry Simpson wrote:
I am very interested in purchasing one or the other and having difficulty weighing the merits each of because of no direct experience with either. I would like to have some advice concerning reliability, resale values, performance and build quality. Can I compare apples and apples with these two?

I know of a JS-1 that had some kind of compressor stall and would not start in a contest last season. That gave me some pause. You might want to look into that. It is a new system. Call me again on that if you wish.

With the 29e, of course, you have to do the "dive" to start which means you have to be over a suitable field at 1500 ft. AGL min to do a truly safe start procedure.

As far as performance, I would say they are very, very equal. Of course the 29 is 18/15 and the JS-1 is 18/21. If I had to choose 2 classes I would probably choose 18/Open but of course you also have to pay a lot extra for that span (30k). Trailer is very tight as well with both 18 and 21 meter tips onboard.

Resale price has to be comparable (depreciation) for the 18m although the edge in ease of sale would likely go to the 29.

Definitely apples to apples. Just one is covered in caramel (jet and 21m)! You have to pay extra for the caramel of course.

Personally, I dont think you could go wrong with either. The cool factor is probably with the JS-1. The smart play might be the 29 if your worried about price and selling easily soon at a good price.

This is probably nothing new for you. Hopefully some others chime in and help you here. I wonder has anyone owned both gliders?

Dont forget about the HpH 18m jet either. This might be worth some thought too.

My 2 cents...

New this year is a new starter system for the 29E. It now has an electric DC starter motor which I believe is mounted on the crankshaft, which negates the diving to start. I think it is a DC motor like the one on the LAK FES only smaller. I have considered the Hph, however value retention and quick resale is a concern.

On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 1:36:21 PM UTC-8, Gerry Simpson wrote:
I am very interested in purchasing one or the other and having difficulty weighing the merits each of because of no direct experience with either. I would like to have some advice concerning reliability, resale values, performance and build quality. Can I compare apples and apples with these two?

Something to think about with the jet engine is an uncontained engine failure (happens rarely in the airline world but it does happen and what kind of engine fire protection is available for a "Hot Start" or engine fire (another rare occurrence but does happen) So if there is an engine fire protection systems AND some kind of shield for the pilot if the engine suffered some kind of rpm exceedence then I would seriously consider the jet

On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 4:36:21 PM UTC-5, Gerry Simpson wrote:
I am very interested in purchasing one or the other and having difficulty weighing the merits each of because of no direct experience with either. I would like to have some advice concerning reliability, resale values, performance and build quality. Can I compare apples and apples with these two?

If you want to fly an ASG29E on the east coast it will do fine but please don't think the sustainer will be useful when you go out west. You will not be able to climb when the density altitude is 9,500 feet (last year at ELY).. As long as you are aware of limitations you will be happy. I chose ASH as I wanted to climb over mountains. The ASG-29 is a wonderful glider you will not regret.

Check which glider will give you higher climb rate. I would go with the one that climbs better. Just picture a situation where you find yourself low over a field and you start your engine. The direction home is over some questionable terrain so if you are at 1500 AGL you will not just go home. You need to climb at least as high as necessary to give you a good glide to next landing spot in case the engine fails. You always need to be prepared for the worst. So a glider that climbs faster will make your life easier. Of course if you are over flat lands with farming fields you will be in a better situation as you can go home lower.

Enjoy whatever you choose.

Gerry, were did you get this information? Is there somewhere we can read about that? I didn't see anything on the AS website or in the technical notes.

If the new 29e has an electric start that would be worth a few extra points.. Have not heard of that either. You clearly are thinking new now?

Great points about climb limitations out west. I have heard that about many sustainers out west. Obviously, the jet would have a tremendous advantage there.

The Hph jet is pretty darn impressive glider and is far also less expensive than the JS1. Their jet has been around for much longer. Hph doesn't get a fair share of interest in the US (worse than the JS-1). The performance and quality is outstanding from what have read.

The Lak17b FES is also very, very impressive. Not sure how FES performs out west but it is likely far better than a rotax sustainer. Nothing on the market beats FES in price/performance and practicality. Well, perhaps the jet does if you can afford it and if your looking to fly out west often.

If only the Handicap committee would give FES a reasonably fair handicap! Right now it actually rates HIGHER than pure (LOL) due to higher gross weight. If you don't care primarily about contest results, the 17b FES is the glider I would buy. To be clear I say that referring to FES drag impact and handicap issues, not pure glider performance. You would save some dough it has 21 meter wings as well. Such a bummer that they have never really bothered to prove the performance of their designs. A few very competitive pilots have gliders coming. That will be interesting to watch.

I'm going to place a wager. Gerry is going to order a JS-1! Anyone have $20 bucks they want to lose?

:-)

At 02:36 28 January 2015, wrote:

Something to think about with the jet engine is an uncontained
engine
failu=
re (happens rarely in the airline world but it does happen and what
kind
of=
engine fire protection is available for a "Hot Start" or engine fire
(anot=
her rare occurrence but does happen) So if there is an engine fire
protect=
ion systems AND some kind of shield for the pilot if the engine
suffered
so=
me kind of rpm exceedence then I would seriously consider the jet


There is an EASA document titled "Special Condition on Small Jet
engine for Sailplane Applicable to Sailplanes Category" which gives
the design and certification criteria for turbines for gliders and which
discusses rotor containment. All the glider turbines have to comply
to be certified and I know that M&D who make the JS1 jet had to
put their engine through 1500 start and power cycles with a cracked
blade as part of the certification tests. That issue doesn't worry me
at all.

http://www.easa.europa.eu/system/fil...tion-docs-crd-
Special-Condition-small-jet-engine-for-sailplane-final.pdf

As for the fire risk, there isn't a lot of point in having a fire wall in
the JS1 engine bay when the turbine can only be run when it is fully
extended with the engine bay doors shut.

There is comprehensive emergency procedure advice in the jet
manual including about engine fires - how to recognise them and
how to manage them. The bottom line is close the fuel valve and
wait until the engine stops, then switch the engine off and wait until
it cools down.

As a European owner I am far more concerned about when the
turbine is going to get EASA certification so that I can get it installed
rather than hazards after it is installed.

John Galloway

I have no experience with the new jet powered gliders other than what I have seen during flight demonstrations at Oshkosh, Wisconsin.

The noise was nothing short of deafening!

My immediate thought was we could not allow them at our gliderport as the neighbors would justifiably raise hell.

Tom Knauff

At 13:29 28 January 2015, wrote:
I have no experience with the new jet powered gliders other than
what I
have seen during flight demonstrations at Oshkosh, Wisconsin.

The noise was nothing short of deafening!

My immediate thought was we could not allow them at our gliderport
as the
neighbors would justifiably raise hell.

Tom Knauff


Presumably sustainer jets would be used away from the airfield.