"Cluster bombs called 'war crime'"

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:59:49 GMT, "cypher745"
wrote:

Rats,

In response to your eloquent rebuttal.

" Umm, what the **** are you going on about? "

It was you who stated the following "Sure, let's put them all on trial.
Let's also include the US President
responsible for dropping the atomic bombs, the US President responsible for
carpet bombing, napalm and agent orange in Vietnam. US hypocrisy never
ceases to amaze me."

Where did the US "carpet bomb" in Vietnam? Tactical strikes in the
South were always FAC control. Tactical targets in the North were
strictly briefed. Did you ever read about the controversy regarding
bombing of dikes? Notice that POW camps in the center of Hanoi weren't
hit? I can give you a statement from a POW who was moved to a cell
with a window looking out on the Hanoi power plant. Wasn't hit.

More "carpet bombing" damage occurred in the North from falling AAA
shrapnel and missile debris than errant bombs.

What's wrong with napalm? Consider this, you're sitting in your living
room and I drop a mk-82 500 pound GP bomb in your front yard, fifteen
feet outside your front door. Your house is destroyed and you are
dead. Now, if it were a BLU-1B napalm can, you would hear a loud
swoosh, the bright flames would probably sear the house wall, and you
would get up from your easy chair and evacuate out the other end of
the house. Napalm any worse than a bomb? Emotionalism, that's all.

Agent Orange? You ever use weed killer in your back yard? I've seen
guys bathe in it. Emotionalism, that's all.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Where did the US "carpet bomb" in Vietnam? Tactical strikes in the
South were always FAC control.

Hmm, I don't know Ed. A BUFF with a 2.5 mile long bomb train pretty much sounds
like "carpet bombing" to me, particularly if you consider there were 3 or 4 of
them.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"BUFDRVR" wrote...

Hmm, I don't know Ed. A BUFF with a 2.5 mile long bomb train pretty much
sounds
like "carpet bombing" to me, particularly if you consider there were 3 or 4 of
them.

I've seen the term "carpet bombing" bandied about for years. I've never seen or
heard a definition. Is there one? A generally accepted one?

I've seen the term "carpet bombing" bandied about for years. I've never seen
or
heard a definition. Is there one? A generally accepted one?


I generally dislike the term since it's often applied to the BUFF and seems to
mean to most in the world media; "dropping 6 or more bombs at once". The
definition to most of the present and former aviators I know appears to be
"bombing a target *area* rather than a target itself".


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

On 25 Jan 2004 22:59:14 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

I've seen the term "carpet bombing" bandied about for years. I've never seen
or
heard a definition. Is there one? A generally accepted one?


I generally dislike the term since it's often applied to the BUFF and seems to
mean to most in the world media; "dropping 6 or more bombs at once". The
definition to most of the present and former aviators I know appears to be
"bombing a target *area* rather than a target itself".


I agree--the key is area rather than specific target and the
implication is usually municipal rather than rural as well as
indiscriminate rather than specific military.

By that criteria, I'll still say little or no "carpet bombing" in SEA.
As BUFDRVR notes, a B-52 bomb string covers some ground, but Arc Light
missions were specific targets and virtually always jungle areas, not
cities or villages. Linebacker II BUFF drops were quite remarkable in
accuracy, with recce runs that confirmed almost every crater location
in the Route Pack.

In numerous areas the BDA photos showed bomb strings precisely on
military targets and clearly bypassing civilian or cultural
infrastructure.

Carpet bombing generally recalls the mass formations of WW II bombers
dropping en masse on European cities. Nothing like that ever happened
in SEA. Maybe if it had, we'd have finished it up in less than eight
years.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ed Rasimus" wrote

By that criteria, I'll still say little or no "carpet bombing" in SEA.

If you limit it to iron. The most common carpet bombing in Vietnam
was the defoliant chemicals.

Maybe there's a more correct term, as "bombing" seems to signify
explosives, rather than biological weapons.

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:00:49 -0600, "S. Sampson"
wrote:

"Ed Rasimus" wrote

By that criteria, I'll still say little or no "carpet bombing" in SEA.

If you limit it to iron. The most common carpet bombing in Vietnam
was the defoliant chemicals.

Maybe there's a more correct term, as "bombing" seems to signify
explosives, rather than biological weapons.

It is a giant leap of language to translate defoliants into
"biological weapons"--In fact a slightly (but only slightly) lesser
assault on language would be to label defoliants as "chemical
weapons".

But, the essential assault is the implication that an herbicide is
somehow homicidal. When you kill the dandelions in your lawn with a
broadcast herbicide, are you somehow guilty of a version of genocide.

I certainly don't want to get into the debate about long term health
impacts of excessive exposure to Agent Orange, but I think we can all
agree that immediate physiological impact on humans (or even
livestock) from Agent Orange exposure was non-existant.

And, I don't think application of a "weapon" that doesn't have an
effect on the enemy for more than twenty years is tactically sound.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:00:49 -0600, "S. Sampson" wrote:

"Ed Rasimus" wrote

By that criteria, I'll still say little or no "carpet bombing" in SEA.

If you limit it to iron. The most common carpet bombing in Vietnam
was the defoliant chemicals.

Maybe there's a more correct term, as "bombing" seems to signify
explosives, rather than biological weapons.

The US did not use any biological weapons in SEA.

Al Minyard

By that criteria, I'll still say little or no "carpet bombing" in SEA.

Using your definition I'd agre as well. My definition didn't address
discriminate versus indiscriminate since I don't believe the USAF or its
predecessor the USAAF ever bombed indiscriminately. "Saturation bombing" was
necessary to achieve the desired .pd on the designated target due to the poor
bombing accuracy. No USAAF crew was ever sent out during WW II and told to;
"just drop your weapons where ever".

a B-52 bomb string covers some ground, but Arc Light
missions were specific targets and virtually always jungle areas, not
cities or villages.

However, they were striking general areas. The target may have been specific,
but it was specific in regards to general area.

Does that make sense? Did I type that correctly?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
I've seen the term "carpet bombing" bandied about for years. I've never
seen
or
heard a definition. Is there one? A generally accepted one?


I generally dislike the term since it's often applied to the BUFF and
seems to
mean to most in the world media; "dropping 6 or more bombs at once". The
definition to most of the present and former aviators I know appears to be
"bombing a target *area* rather than a target itself".


Carpet bombing: Large amounts of munitions dropped over an area to dispense
of bad guys and tactical targets.........in other words, opening all the
bays at once to achieve maximum use of force...WTF is wrong with that as
long as mission accomplished?
--
Pup
USAF, Retired
Go #88 UPS Racing, Detroit Red Wings,
Ohio State Buckeyes
__________________