Aviation crash videos on-line

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 17:48:44 +0000 (UTC), Mike wrote:

to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen by
the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of hundreds
of
county fairgrounds across America.

Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I don't know about the *whole* world, but there is no NASCAR in Europe, but
there is soccer. Soccer is not that polpular in the US (as far as I was
told), but is very popular in many other parts of the world.

http://www.google.com/search?q=most+popular+sport is what google turns up
about that.
--
The more one is absorbed in fighting Evil,
the less one is tempted to place the Good
in question. (J.P. Sartre)

Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been spouting.

I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several hundred
thousand "fans" in attendance.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 17:48:44 +0000 (UTC), Mike wrote:

to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly
seen by
the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of
hundreds
of
county fairgrounds across America.

Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I don't know about the *whole* world, but there is no NASCAR in
Europe, but
there is soccer. Soccer is not that polpular in the US (as far as I
was
told), but is very popular in many other parts of the world.

http://www.google.com/search?q=most+popular+sport is what google
turns up
about that.
--
The more one is absorbed in fighting Evil,
the less one is tempted to place the Good
in question. (J.P. Sartre)

The U.S. women's soccer team has managed to create some new interest in
soccer within the United States. Perhaps it will remain for awhile.
As for NASCAR in Europe; if NASCAR ever invades formula 1, they will
have no doubt have drivers with names like Bobby Ray Hall!!!! :-))))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".

I see them as different sides of the same coin. One begets the other, IMHO.

I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.

If it's hypocrisy you're angry about, I'm with you. But I don't think the
original poster was trying to pass his site off as being associated with
flight safety in any way.

Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!

Some of the greatest photographs of our time -- many Pulitzer Prize
winners -- have been snapped in just such a fashion.

Not to defend that photographer's actions, or to minimize your friend's
anguish -- personally, I couldn't do such a thing, emotionally or
technically -- but this event would clearly be labeled as "breaking news" by
most journalists, and there are writers and photographers out there whose
main job it is to cover these types of events.

Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!

I understand your emotion, but I think it's misplaced. Flying airplanes in
an air race, wing-tip to wing-tip, is INCREDIBLY dangerous. The odds of an
accident or incident are high, the odds of violent death are not good. Your
friend knew the risks, and knowingly took them.

He also knew -- as did you -- that the race course was ringed with
spectators and journalists with cameras. To expect photographers to turn
away from a spectacular airplane crash is pretty unreasonable. To expect a
photographer NOT to snap a picture of someone trying to run toward a plane
wreck is unrealistic.

To expect these same photographs to be destroyed, or never published, is
even less realistic. The internet is just the newest form of publishing, a
natural progression from Guttenberg until today. This guy's website is
just an electronic book -- photos printed with electrons instead of ink.

Although I understand your distaste, Dudley, you are railing against human
nature. A darker side of it, for sure -- but it's human nature nonetheless.
You're not going to change it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:40p_c.102614$9d6.102101@attbi_s54...
Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been
spouting.

I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several
hundred
thousand "fans" in attendance.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



Jay, I checked the NASCAR site
(http://www.nascar.com/2004/promos/20...world_drivers/) and I can
only see them claiming to be the US's top spectator sport. I'll buy that -
like you, I have no way to verify it.

However, I can't believe it's the *world's* top spectator sport:
football/soccer must pull in many more, whether on TV or at the stadiums.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:40p_c.102614$9d6.102101@attbi_s54...
Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been
spouting.

I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several
hundred
thousand "fans" in attendance.
--
Jay Honeck

The media out here in SoCal are claiming that the weekend's
attendance at the Fontana Raceway will exceed the count at three NFL Super
Bowls.

According to:
http://netscape.nascar.com/2004/news...30/california/
"92,000 -- The announced grandstand seating capacity of California
Speedway. "

The actual count is 92,109 according to the Speedway officials, but hey.....

Oh, I should also point out that is the number of seats in the
grandstands -- it does not include all the RVs parked around the infield.

"Casey Wilson" wrote in message
news:AEq_c.1640$PK3.445@trnddc08...


snip

According to:
http://netscape.nascar.com/2004/news...30/california/
"92,000 -- The announced grandstand seating capacity of California
Speedway. "

The actual count is 92,109 according to the Speedway officials, but
hey.....

Oh, I should also point out that is the number of seats in the
grandstands -- it does not include all the RVs parked around the infield.



Texas Motor Speedway has a total capacity of 204,861. The actual seating
capacity is 154,861 and the infield capacity is 53,000.
http://www.texasmotorspeedway.com/sp...trackspecs.asp

If I remember correctly, TMS has sold out *every* NASCAR event to date. They
have finally received a second NASCAR date, so now I bet they sell out 2
races per year!

Go Dale Jr!!!


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.751 / Virus Database: 502 - Release Date: 9/2/2004

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:vip_c.291091$eM2.269081@attbi_s51...
You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses
is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on
the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".

I see them as different sides of the same coin. One begets the other,
IMHO.

I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would
argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the
net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of
the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.

If it's hypocrisy you're angry about, I'm with you. But I don't think
the
original poster was trying to pass his site off as being associated
with
flight safety in any way.

Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I
stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in
71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag.
I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking
and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!

Some of the greatest photographs of our time -- many Pulitzer Prize
winners -- have been snapped in just such a fashion.

Not to defend that photographer's actions, or to minimize your
friend's
anguish -- personally, I couldn't do such a thing, emotionally or
technically -- but this event would clearly be labeled as "breaking
news" by
most journalists, and there are writers and photographers out there
whose
main job it is to cover these types of events.

Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a
camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a
picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal
moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!

I understand your emotion, but I think it's misplaced. Flying
airplanes in
an air race, wing-tip to wing-tip, is INCREDIBLY dangerous. The odds
of an
accident or incident are high, the odds of violent death are not good.
Your
friend knew the risks, and knowingly took them.

He also knew -- as did you -- that the race course was ringed with
spectators and journalists with cameras. To expect photographers to
turn
away from a spectacular airplane crash is pretty unreasonable. To
expect a
photographer NOT to snap a picture of someone trying to run toward a
plane
wreck is unrealistic.

To expect these same photographs to be destroyed, or never published,
is
even less realistic. The internet is just the newest form of
publishing, a
natural progression from Guttenberg until today. This guy's website
is
just an electronic book -- photos printed with electrons instead of
ink.

Although I understand your distaste, Dudley, you are railing against
human
nature. A darker side of it, for sure -- but it's human nature
nonetheless.
You're not going to change it.

I'm not arguing that these things don't exist. Nor am I arguing their
reasons for existence. YOU ARE!!!
Apparently for some reason you just can't grasp the fact that what I
posted initially was simply a personal statement of distaste. It's YOU
who keep arguing a position for crash photos outside the flight safety
context. I'm simply responding to YOUR seeming objection that I find the
use of these photos distasteful to me personally and feel the need to
"educate" me in the finer points of life.

One more time Jay; I'm saying that it's DISTASTEFUL to me personally and
that I for one don't wish to associate with it. Whether or not YOU have
an opposing viewpoint is of absolutely no consequence to me or how I
view the situation at all. I appreciate the fact that you do however,
obviously have an opposing viewpoint and I respect your right to express
it. But when you start branching your "opinions" out of your puddle
jumper cockpit and into my world as a demonstration pilot as an equal,
I'm afraid you have crossed the line with me. You are not my equal, and
on issues like these I will never see you as such.
That being said, and considering I don't particularly relish being
lectured by a pleasure pilot on the idiosyncrasies and dangers involved
in a business I have known thousands of hours in as a participant and
you know only as a spectator, if you don't object I'll just allow you
your feelings on the matter whatever they are,and bid you a fond
farewell.
I don't mean this last comment in a particularly mean way Jay; actually
it's kind of sarcastically humorous as I see it; but If I ever need an
"expert" opinion on flying high performance airplanes in a dangerous
environment, I'll be sure to notify you right away. Until then, I'll
just have to struggle by on what I know about the subject already :-)

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

Apparently for some reason you just can't grasp the fact that what I
posted initially was simply a personal statement of distaste.

No, you didn't tell the original poster "I find you personally
distasteful" -- you said "I detest people like you."

That's not a subtle difference.

But when you start branching your "opinions" out of your puddle
jumper cockpit and into my world as a demonstration pilot as an equal,
I'm afraid you have crossed the line with me. You are not my equal, and
on issues like these I will never see you as such.

What you can't seem to grasp is that your inflammatory statement (and my
following post) was NOT about demonstration flying, or even about
puddle-jumper flying -- it was about ethics. And on this subject, sir, I am
at least your equal.

Apparently you have no interest in explaining the ethical logic that must
underlie your somewhat bizarre response to the initial post -- and that, of
course, is your prerogative. But then don't complain to me about being
lectured to about flying -- because that's not what is happening here.

Far from it.

That being said, and considering I don't particularly relish being
lectured by a pleasure pilot on the idiosyncrasies and dangers involved
in a business I have known thousands of hours in as a participant and
you know only as a spectator, if you don't object I'll just allow you
your feelings on the matter whatever they are,and bid you a fond
farewell.

*sigh*

Since I've obviously failed to make my point -- and this is a topic I REALLY
don't care much about -- I will also bid you a fond "Adios" as well...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:yLr_c.103907$9d6.76039@attbi_s54...
Apparently for some reason you just can't grasp the fact that what I
posted initially was simply a personal statement of distaste.

No, you didn't tell the original poster "I find you personally
distasteful" -- you said "I detest people like you."

That's not a subtle difference.

I see.... depends on the meaning of what "is" is; right? Don't know
about you Honek, but if I detest somone, you can be fairly certain that
whatever they might be doing that illicits this response, I would find
personally distasteful, don't you think? Seems like a simple equation to
me!


But when you start branching your "opinions" out of your puddle
jumper cockpit and into my world as a demonstration pilot as an
equal,
I'm afraid you have crossed the line with me. You are not my equal,
and
on issues like these I will never see you as such.

What you can't seem to grasp is that your inflammatory statement (and
my
following post) was NOT about demonstration flying, or even about
puddle-jumper flying -- it was about ethics. And on this subject,
sir, I am
at least your equal.

Well, maybe in your opinion anyway. But not in mine; not if you enjoy
watching crash video for....as you have said....the "thrills"
involved.... was it? I believe what you said exactly was " Personally,
I view aviation videos for the thrill". (I should note here that when
you made this statement, we were discussing aviation crash video outside
the flight safety aspect specifically and not aviation videos per se')


Apparently you have no interest in explaining the ethical logic that
must
underlie your somewhat bizarre response to the initial post -- and
that, of
course, is your prerogative.

I believe I've explained the logic behind my reaction to purient crash
video quite plainly. To reiterate, it's based on fifty years of exposure
to flying airplanes in the environment depicted in these crash videos;
direct involvement as a participant working with the issues involved in
the safety aspects of this scenario; personal experience with the greif
and suffering of friends and associates killed in this scenario; and my
total dislike for those who treat crash video as a hobby, presenting it
in the public forum for sheer entertainment with no regard to the safety
issue and/or the lives they touch by so doing; and my total dislike for
those who willingly partake of these crash videos "for the thrill" they
get from watching them. Need I continue, or is this enough?


But then don't complain to me about being
lectured to about flying -- because that's not what is happening here.

Really.....what's this then?
Honek lectures;
"Flying airplanes in
an air race, wing-tip to wing-tip, is INCREDIBLY dangerous. The odds of
an
accident or incident are high, the odds of violent death are not good."

No kidding....REALLY!!! Why, I NEVER would have known this had you not
taken the time to explain it to me.......and so thoroughly too!!!!! :-))



*sigh*

Yes, a "sigh" is what I would expect from someone who would feel the
need to supply this tidbit of more or less obvious information to
someone else who has spent a lifetime directly involved with the
environment and hardly needs the information explained by someone who
hasn't.

Since I've obviously failed to make my point -- and this is a topic I
REALLY
don't care much about -- I will also bid you a fond "Adios" as well...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Yes, you have failed to make your point, with me at least; whatever that
was, but you did make one point perfectly clear in your last comment.
You obviously "don't care much about the topic" and I do. That's the
basic difference between us and the crux of our disagreement.
I have no desire to end this with you on a bad note Jay. It's just not
worth it for either one of us. Let's end this now before it crosses over
into something it need not become.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet