First Glider - No Gelcoat

Yes I've read lots of posts about buying a first glider. My heart is set on
an LS-4 since I'd like to stay in the roughly $30K US price range with a
decent panel and trailer.

BUT, what if I just don't want gelcoat because sooner or later it will have
to be refinished and that doesn't make any sense economically. Then what
would you recommend? I'd rather buy something I could fly for a few years
and not outgrow too quickly and that has a ready market for resale should I
decide to move up the food chain. BTW I fly in light conditions, southern
Ontario, Canada.

Thanks.
Wad.

Waduino wrote:
Yes I've read lots of posts about buying a first glider. My heart is set on
an LS-4 since I'd like to stay in the roughly $30K US price range with a
decent panel and trailer.

BUT, what if I just don't want gelcoat because sooner or later it will have
to be refinished and that doesn't make any sense economically. Then what
would you recommend? I'd rather buy something I could fly for a few years
and not outgrow too quickly and that has a ready market for resale should I
decide to move up the food chain. BTW I fly in light conditions, southern
Ontario, Canada.

How about an SGS 1-34?


Jack

PIK 20 has LS4 performance and was manufactured without gelcoat. They
currently seem to be selling for $15-18K US.

a PIK20 is not an LS4 or an "__your choice___"......! L/D numbers also are
only that....and not a good comparison of performance or value....all too
many glider buyers use L/D figures which are often very optimistic or
misleading and test reports that have in them their own errors as the basis
for buyer considerations...
The PIK is IMHO an OK glider.but...........again IMHO OK only.....the early
Wortman wing did perform well enough in the day to be copied and used on a
number of other gliders contemporary of the time......it also doesn't like
water drops, dirt or bug.....the PIK is relatively heavy due to the early
construction techniques and would be by today's standard be considered
"sloppily" built...it also is a 15M flapped glider and aside from D/E models
is flaps only..so on a budget it's a fair flyer.but let's not simply use L/D
to convert to value $....
As for the Paint /Gel Coat question.......you really need to look at the
issues with both.....I have not seen 20-30 year old gliders with painted
surfaces that are superior to gel coated surfaces.providing the Gelcoat was
a good quality and properly prepared.Old gliders are old gliders.if they are
not cared for they are ratty old gliders that too need to be
refinished.....be it paint, dope or gelcoat.......and the cost to do any is
still high.
IMHO you look for the best glider you can afford, and afford to keep, one
that not only has L/D but has other redeeming factors and one you will own
and love to own....and whatever your budget is.....add an extra 10-15K to it
)
tim
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com

"mike" wrote in message
ups.com...
PIK 20 has LS4 performance and was manufactured without gelcoat. They
currently seem to be selling for $15-18K US.

Waduino wrote:
Yes I've read lots of posts about buying a first glider. My heart is set on
an LS-4 since I'd like to stay in the roughly $30K US price range with a
decent panel and trailer.

BUT, what if I just don't want gelcoat because sooner or later it will have
to be refinished and that doesn't make any sense economically. Then what
would you recommend? I'd rather buy something I could fly for a few years
and not outgrow too quickly and that has a ready market for resale should I
decide to move up the food chain. BTW I fly in light conditions, southern
Ontario, Canada.

Thanks.
Wad.



Why would it have to be refinished? Are there any data on the before and
after flying qualities before and after a 10K (or more) paint job? You
may be cryin' before you're hurt 8)

BTW, I had mine done -- looks nice!

Bob Johnson

Take a look at the Std. Jantars, about $18-20K with numbers close to an
LS-4. While not an LS-4, the cost and lack of refinish issues make it
a great ship for the $. Robust and designed for x-c learning as well
as good enough for long flights.

Your first glider should be one that you can fly safely, enjoy flying
it, learn from it and from its handling. The finish of the glider is
important, but there are many other even more important issues. Jantar
Std. is good, solid, built like a tank glider, but it is not for a
beginner pilot. The same applies to the PIK gliders. The LS-4 could
also be handfull if flown by a pilot with limited experience. And that
is true with any composite glider. It is not a simple problem and
advises like that, even though they ment well, can be frustrating. I
would suggest that you fly several different gliders, don't rush to buy
one, but rather fly what is available for rent for at least a full
season and then make your decision.

Sincerely,

Jacek Kobiesa
Washington State

I will second what has been said here and add this--
With older gliders, condition is everything and trailer condition is more
important than anything else. If it's a pain to rig, you will be less
inclined to fly on margial days. Ergonomics matter a lot too. Some of us are
not built for a Jantar. Tall, slender with long arms and you're fine. Any
glass ship will bite you if you are not well trained. Serious drill in a
glass twoplace with an instructor is required. The insidious part is that
they seem so docile up to a point.
So general condition, ease of rigging and comfort for long flight is the
key. You need to learn how to sand gelcoat anyway. Then it needs to be kept
sealed from moisture and UV and it will stay stable a long time.
A L33 Solo might fill the bill for you, and a 1-34 will certaily do the job
nicely (except for the trailer part).
--
Hartley Falbaum
wrote in message
oups.com...
Your first glider should be one that you can fly safely, enjoy flying
it, learn from it and from its handling. The finish of the glider is
important, but there are many other even more important issues. Jantar
Std. is good, solid, built like a tank glider, but it is not for a
beginner pilot. The same applies to the PIK gliders. The LS-4 could
also be handfull if flown by a pilot with limited experience. And that
is true with any composite glider. It is not a simple problem and
advises like that, even though they ment well, can be frustrating. I
would suggest that you fly several different gliders, don't rush to buy
one, but rather fly what is available for rent for at least a full
season and then make your decision.

Sincerely,

Jacek Kobiesa
Washington State

wrote:
Your first glider should be one that you can fly safely, enjoy flying
it, learn from it and from its handling. The finish of the glider is
important, but there are many other even more important issues. Jantar
Std. is good, solid, built like a tank glider, but it is not for a
beginner pilot. The same applies to the PIK gliders. The LS-4 could
also be handfull if flown by a pilot with limited experience. And that
is true with any composite glider. It is not a simple problem and
advises like that, even though they ment well, can be frustrating. I
would suggest that you fly several different gliders, don't rush to buy
one, but rather fly what is available for rent for at least a full
season and then make your decision.

I agree with most of your advice, However, the OP didn't say he was
inexperienced in glass, just that he's buying his first ship. My first
glider was a Ventus, but I had significant time in glass gliders.
How is an LS-4 a handful? I suppose if you've only been in 2-33s or
Blaniks, but I hear it's about as docile as a glider gets.

Shawn

Jacek,

Wad. didn't say he was a beginner pilot, only he was looking for:
1. A first ship
2. One without gel coat
3. Would work while he is learning cross-country and be able to grow
with him as he got better

I still think the Jantar Standard meets all those criteria. My first
ship was a Std. Cirrus. If I listened to all the pundits I should have
been killed because they are so hard to fly. What I found was it was
one of the nicest ships around for a first glass and I flew my first
cross countries to my diamond distance flights in the ship. Any new
ship should be approached with caution and a plan should be established
to allow time to learn to fly the ship in low stress environments
before taking one cross country.

I have seen very few areas where a Std Jantar would be difficult for a
relatively competent low time pilot. Any pilot at that stage should be
working with a good instructor that knows the capability of the student
to handle new situation and their rate of learning. The only phase of
flight that is different for the Std. Jantar is take-off due to the
high angle of attack. This does not take long to learn and with use of
spoilers minimizes the issue.

If the student is competent and a reasonable learner they will out grow
the L-33, SGS 1-34 and other similar ships very quickly. Why waste
their time going through two or more ships. I usually recommend a
minimum of 25 hours and 10 flights in a new ship for a low time pilot
before they consider going cross country. The 25 hours will make sure
they have thermalled enough to know what the stall characteristics are
and how the plane will react prior to stall.

They should also have an instructor or coach evaluating their readiness
to progress to the next level.

I am 5' 9" and fit in a Std. Jantar just fine.

All glass ships as well as all gliders must be approached with caution
and respect, but most pilots interested in going cross country that
have time in a glass trainer will have little trouble transitioning to
most of the standard class ships. I don't think the transition is
that difficult due to the ship as much as the change in performance
from most trainers. That is where a good training plan is needed to
allow the pilot to stay ahead of the ship. I have over 500 hours each
in a Std. Cirrus and a Nimbus 2M as well as a hundred this last year in
a Ventus B. They all are supposed to be somewhat difficult to fly, but
I have enjoyed them all and learned a great deal about soaring from
each one.

Tim