Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda.

"Kilroy" wrote in message
...

"Jughead" wrote in message Comment accepted, and I certainly agree, which
is exactly what I intend to
do now.

Thank you "Uncle Tom!!"

You had to get the last lick in, I guess. If he has any class, and I think he
has, he will not say, "You're, welcome, Rastus", which would keep the ****ing
match going indefinitely. Let's all of us walk away from this, before it
descends into a really nasty area that won't accomplish any more than rub
feelings raw.

George Z.

From: "The Enlightenment"

Today Possum Gully; Tomorrow The World!

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...
The Squadron was particularly effective at a time when being judged by
merit
was apparently not common and for this its men deserve great honor.

Not quite. You seem not to understand that in the US at the time, it was
customary (and in some states legal) to simply altogether exclude certain
entire groups of persons from the application of the rights, privileges and
immunities of citizenship, including voting rights and service in the armed
forces. In the USAAC, for example, a potential pilot-trainee could at one
time be excluded from participation on the grounds...that he was a
Negro...and no other rationale was considered necessary for that situation
to obtain. The same obtained when it came to admission to the US service
academies. That policy did change, however. Similarly, non-whites were
excluded from the US Navy's officer ranks for most of the war. Hence the TA
might not have been judged on their merits, but discriminated against
despite their merits.


However the reason the Trugegee Airmen worked, indeed the reason
integration
has not degraded the effectiveness of the US military is this: Selection
on the basis of merit and IQ tests.

IQ tests have been under fire as a legitimate tool of selection for many
years. An IQ test is all but irrelevant in determining which persons will
have the hand-eye-leg coordination necessary for competent fighter pilotage,
or for determining which persons will demonstrate the skills requisite to
managing a transport or a bomber a/c. Any human-resources person in the
civilian sector can probably tell you, (if so inclined) how easy it is to
"get around" even stringent selection rules. In other words, neither native
intelligence (IQ?) nor acquired skills (merit) necessarily determined how
society or a military organization treated you.

You seem to fail to recognize that officially-sanctioned racism was more or
less the norm in the US of those days. The TA experiment succeeded only
because the necessary impetus was available to force it through against
several levels and forms of opposition: F Delano and Eleanor Roosevelt.
Otherwise, the TA probably would have been excluded.

It was not a question of whether the TA were "qualified"; instead it was a
question of whether they should be included or could be excluded. To ensure
exclusion, certain roadblocks were placed in their way. That was the
reality, virtually all across the board.

They were an elite.

That seems to have been true, to the extent that the "typical" TA had
completed college or a substantial proportion thereof, whereas the black
population taken as a whole had not had such an education. By contrast (and
no aspersion is intended) Chuck Yeager, by all accounts an excellent pilot,
did not attend college. Recall also that Bob Johnson of P-47 fame,
matriculated at a junior college before entering the USAAC. In neither case
did their education or membership in an "elite" make any real difference to
their opportunity to become pilots or to their performances. It was
unnecessary for either Yeager or Johnson to have been part of an "elite" in
order to become a part of the air corps, but I'm glad both of them were
available and that the USAAF sent them where they could do some good work.

Methods both made
illegal under affirmative action in the civilian world in a Landmark case
involving the Duke Power Company who wanted to eliminate the possibility
of
racial discrimination by using written tests and IQ tests devoid of bias
as
much as possible.

I may be a bit parochial, but I don't believe I've ever encountered a test
which can be termed "devoid of bias", probably because no one who composes
tests based principally on IQ is without biases (I admit to reaching this
conclusion only after discussions with psychology majors while in college).
A built-in bias of any such test is that it assumes that the testees have
had solid educations, and rewards those who have.


That's the sub text of what I think when I here someone lauding the
Tusgegee
Airmen. They are lauding and proving the effectveness of IQ and 100%
merit
based tests.

Not really. You don't seem to understand that there were societal and
(within the USAAF) systemic biases at work against the TA even coming into
existence. A phrase I used to hear quite often (but less so nowadays) was
that "A Negro (that wasn't what was actually uttered) can't become a (fill
in the blank), they're not smart enough". After completing training, the TA
were subjected to a long waiting period before they were grudgingly sent
overseas. The TA achieved against tough odds. This was the result of the TA
men belonging to an "underclass" of US society.

I guess you are lucky if you are judged on merit.

Agreed. Who you know and what group you are classified into are factors
which often have had more to say about one's access to opportunities than
so-called "merit".

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

"Pete" wrote in message
...

Or,
"Had integration not been based on merit and IQ, US military
effectiveness
would have been degraded."
While this may be true, it is also true of anyone selected for pilot
training, be they white, black, or green with pink polka dots.


You're reading things into it that simply are not there.

I read it as it was written. What was not said is as important as what was
said.

Absent clarification from 'The Enlightenment', we are all left in the dark
as to what s/he really meant.

Pete

Subject: Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda.
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 7/6/03 7:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

The Squadron was particularly effective at a time when being judged by merit
was apparently not common and for this its men deserve great honor.

However the reason the Trugegee Airmen worked, indeed the reason integration
has not degraded the effectiveness of the US military is this: Selection
on the basis of merit and IQ tests. They were an elite. Methods both made
illegal under affirmative action in the civilian world in a Landmark case
involving the Duke Power Company who wanted to eliminate the possibility of
racial discrimination by using written tests and IQ tests devoid of bias as
much as possible.

That's the sub text of what I think when I here someone lauding the Tusgegee
Airmen. They are lauding and proving the effectveness of IQ and 100% merit
based tests.

I guess you are lucky if you are judged on merit.
..

Not particularly impressed with the Tuskeegee aimren? Be assured that they are
not particularly impressed with you.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda.
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 7/6/03 7:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


I guess you are lucky if you are judged on merit.
.

Not particularly impressed with the Tuskeegee aimren? Be assured that they are
not particularly impressed with you.


Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
om...
(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda.
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 7/6/03 7:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


I guess you are lucky if you are judged on merit.
.

Not particularly impressed with the Tuskeegee aimren? Be assured that
they are
not particularly impressed with you.


Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda

Frankly, I wouldn't characterize the hubbub over the TA as "propaganda". It
is merely the accurate recounting of the hardships that a group of loyal
citizens had to endure in order to secure the privilege of serving their
nation in a time of war.

Now that there has been so much social change in the US, some youngsters
find it difficult to understand the situation of the TA, or the social
conditions extant in the US at the time. Times change, if there is
sufficient impetus to cause that to happen. The creation and success of the
Tuskegee Airmen was part of an impetus toward social change in the US.

By all accounts I have read, the men generally did well; they upheld the
best traditions of US fighting men once committed to action. That, in many
quarters, had not been expected.

According to a couple of sources I've read, the TA were prized because as an
article of faith, they provided close escort to the bomber formations to
which they were assigned, to the detriment of rolling up victory totals by
avidly pursuing enemy fighters which approached the bombers.

You may have read Mr Kramer's remarks on this ng as to how much the bomber
crewmen (who after all, were the only USAAF component which could actually
do significant harm to the enemy war effort) appreciated having close escort
support. The TA considered that their essential mission was to get the
bombers through to the target and away, without them having to suffer from
enemy fighter depredations. This they accomplished. Insofar as the bomber
crews whose missions they supported were concerned, their success in so
doing was all that mattered, and the color of their skin was irrelevant;
THAT in itself was a victory for the TA, because THAT was "being judged on
merit". That's what they were trying to demonstrate.

Subject: Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda.
From: "Lawrence Dillard"
Date: 7/8/03 12:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
. com...
(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda.
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 7/6/03 7:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


I guess you are lucky if you are judged on merit.
.

Not particularly impressed with the Tuskeegee aimren? Be assured that
they are
not particularly impressed with you.


Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda

Frankly, I wouldn't characterize the hubbub over the TA as "propaganda". It
is merely the accurate recounting of the hardships that a group of loyal
citizens had to endure in order to secure the privilege of serving their
nation in a time of war.

Now that there has been so much social change in the US, some youngsters
find it difficult to understand the situation of the TA, or the social
conditions extant in the US at the time. Times change, if there is
sufficient impetus to cause that to happen. The creation and success of the
Tuskegee Airmen was part of an impetus toward social change in the US.

By all accounts I have read, the men generally did well; they upheld the
best traditions of US fighting men once committed to action. That, in many
quarters, had not been expected.

According to a couple of sources I've read, the TA were prized because as an
article of faith, they provided close escort to the bomber formations to
which they were assigned, to the detriment of rolling up victory totals by
avidly pursuing enemy fighters which approached the bombers.

You may have read Mr Kramer's remarks on this ng as to how much the bomber
crewmen (who after all, were the only USAAF component which could actually
do significant harm to the enemy war effort) appreciated having close escort
support. The TA considered that their essential mission was to get the
bombers through to the target and away, without them having to suffer from
enemy fighter depredations. This they accomplished. Insofar as the bomber
crews whose missions they supported were concerned, their success in so
doing was all that mattered, and the color of their skin was irrelevant;
THAT in itself was a victory for the TA, because THAT was "being judged on
merit". That's what they were trying to demonstrate.


Well said. The TA were skilled accomplished airman who did the deadly jobs
they were trained for. To call it "propoganda" is in itself racist.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda.
From: (The Enlightenment)
Date: 7/7/03 11:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda.
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 7/6/03 7:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


I guess you are lucky if you are judged on merit.
.

Not particularly impressed with the Tuskeegee aimren? Be assured that they
are
not particularly impressed with you.


Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda



You mean it was not true and their reputation was not earned? Prove it.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:33:51 -0400, "Gooneybird"
wrote:

I'm always interested in what you might have to
say about the TA's flying abilities and/or accomplishments, but think that what
you treated us to was something we all could have lived without.

With respect GB I suggest you acquaint yourself with the revisionist
national socialist rhetoric emmited by the poster I am referring to before
jumping down my throat.


I'll cut that odious piece of work no slack.




greg




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