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#2
September 13th 03, 12:40 PM
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Subject: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: Cub Driver Date: 9/13/03 3:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive U.S. aviator bomber jackets. The Defense Department has notified a U.S. leather tanner that it will waive provisions of the law known as the Berry Amendment that requires the Pentagon to buy key components from U.S. manufacturers. In April, the Pentagon announced it would buy 12,000 to 30,000 of the brown, fur-collared bomber jackets over the next several years. I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but I think someone is describing a WWII item. Tex If you go to my website and click on "After Koblenz" I am wearing a fur collared flight jacket, but I don't recall the designation. It sure wasn't an A-2. The shot was made in 1944 at Florennes Belgium after the Koblenz mission. . Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com I don't understand how the Pentagon can revoke a law. I thought only congresss could do that. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer 
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#3
September 14th 03, 10:30 AM
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:05:53 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote: Do you like George Bush in that photo? That would decide the matter one way or another  Excuse me, Art! I wasn't inquiring about your political preferences. I mean to ask: do you *look* like Geo Bush in that photo! all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
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#4
September 14th 03, 12:32 PM
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Subject: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: Cub Driver Date: 9/14/03 2:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:05:53 -0400, Cub Driver wrote: Do you like George Bush in that photo? That would decide the matter one way or another Excuse me, Art! I wasn't inquiring about your political preferences. I mean to ask: do you *look* like Geo Bush in that photo! all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com Naaaah. We never flew in all that fancy stuff. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
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#5
September 15th 03, 05:07 PM
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(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Bomber-jacket leather and our law From: "Tex Houston" 777 Date: 9/12/03 6:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: "Mike Yared" wrote in message ... from http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm Buy Pakistani? The Pentagon is about to waive "buy American" provisions of U.S. law and allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive U.S. aviator bomber jackets. The Defense Department has notified a U.S. leather tanner that it will waive provisions of the law known as the Berry Amendment that requires the Pentagon to buy key components from U.S. manufacturers. In April, the Pentagon announced it would buy 12,000 to 30,000 of the brown, fur-collared bomber jackets over the next several years. No reason US tanneries can't meet that small demand spread over several years. Jeez, more leather jackets than that where made in a month during WWII. I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but I think someone is describing a WWII item. They are describing the USN G-1 (I'm wearing one today), but the spec for that jacket was changed from goat to cow back in '69 or '70. G-1s are still made of goat for the public, but I thought all the jackets produced for the Navy were cow. Maybe some are goat... The USAF uses goat for their current A-2, and recently made changes to the jacket pattern to make it easier to procure quality goatskin for the jackets. As for using US or foreign leather, who cares? The US shouldn't even be producing either jacket. Both the A-2 and G-1 are useless in the cockpit of modern AC. I don't buy the story that there is a shortage of goatskin in the US though. If you go to my website and click on "After Koblenz" I am wearing a fur collared flight jacket, but I don't recall the designation. It sure wasn't an A-2. The shot was made in 1944 at Florennes Belgium after the Koblenz mission. You're wearing a B-10, probably my favorite flight jacket. Standardized in July '43, arrived in the ETO in March '44 and were used through the end of the war. No leather in it though... cotton shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce. ~Michael
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#6
September 15th 03, 06:49 PM
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Subject: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: (Michael) Date: 9/15/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: (ArtKramr) wrote in message ... Subject: Bomber-jacket leather and our law From: "Tex Houston" 777 Date: 9/12/03 6:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: "Mike Yared" wrote in message ... I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but If you go to my website and click on "After Koblenz" I am wearing a fur collared flight jacket, but I don't recall the designation. It sure wasn't an A-2. The shot was made in 1944 at Florennes Belgium after the Koblenz mission. You're wearing a B-10, probably my favorite flight jacket. Standardized in July '43, arrived in the ETO in March '44 and were used through the end of the war. No leather in it though... cotton shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce. ~Michael Yeah it was a nice warm jacket. Not as jazzy as my A-2 but a hell of a lot warmer. And now that you mention B-10 it rings a bell. Thanks. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
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#7
September 16th 03, 10:17 AM
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On 15 Sep 2003 09:07:14 -0700, (Michael) wrote:
No leather in it though... cotton shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce. I think it was about the time of The Great Santini when the fighter? pilots of the USAF persuaded the guvmint to give them back their leather jackets. Cotton of course is better than nylon, but it still burns. Pilots continue to favor leather today, though they aren't consistent about this. I've never seen a pilot at the local airfield togged out in leather helmet or trousers. Probably, like the Great Santini's pals, they like the leather jacket for its WWI and WWII associations. all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
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#8
September 16th 03, 02:47 PM
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Subject: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: Cub Driver Date: 9/16/03 2:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: On 15 Sep 2003 09:07:14 -0700, (Michael) wrote: No leather in it though... cotton shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce. I think it was about the time of The Great Santini when the fighter? pilots of the USAF persuaded the guvmint to give them back their leather jackets. Cotton of course is better than nylon, but it still burns. Pilots continue to favor leather today, though they aren't consistent about this. I've never seen a pilot at the local airfield togged out in leather helmet or trousers. Probably, like the Great Santini's pals, they like the leather jacket for its WWI and WWII associations. all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com I notice that you only reference pilots and pilot preferences in regard to jackets. It took a lot more than just pilots in bombers to get the entire job done, How soon they forget. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
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#9
September 16th 03, 03:08 PM
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#10
September 16th 03, 06:12 PM
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Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
On 15 Sep 2003 09:07:14 -0700, (Michael) wrote: No leather in it though... cotton shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce. I think it was about the time of The Great Santini when the fighter? pilots of the USAF persuaded the guvmint to give them back their leather jackets. The USAF brought the A-2 back in '87 or '88. The story as I read it was that a squadron commander saw the A-2s his men were buying privately to wear off base, and thought it might be a good moral builder if he could get approval for the entire squadron to get them to wear on duty. His request went up the chain of command and someone along the way got the idea they'd be a good moral builder for all USAF aircrew and it went from there. Cotton of course is better than nylon, but it still burns. I don't know which is better or worse. The AAF only made cotton flight jackets for the last two years of WWII, then switched to nylon, which they used until the 70s. So I'd assume the nylon was giving them some sort of advantage the cotton wasn't and that's why they used it, but who knows. Neither's as good as Nomex, that's for sure.  Pilots continue to favor leather today, though they aren't consistent about this. I've never seen a pilot at the local airfield togged out in leather helmet or trousers. Probably, like the Great Santini's pals, they like the leather jacket for its WWI and WWII associations. Oh, no doubt. The leather jackets have a lot more style than the nylon and Nomex ones, and a certain vintage mystique that gives them lots of appeal. But a leather windbreaker designed in the '30s and intended for summer use in an open cockpit doesn't really fit in today though. The AAF realized the A-2 didn't fit in in the 40s, and that's why they switched to the B-10. Leather is too hot and doesn't breathe in a closed cockpit at lower alt, and isn't warm enough at high alt. In the case of the Navy's jacket, the G-1, I've read it hasn't been worn in aircraft with ejection seats since the 50s because its fur collar gets in the way of harnesses, the helmet and its wiring. Why on earth we still make either jacket (A-2 & G-1) for military use is beyond me. They aren't fucntional in the air, they fit into a limited temp range on the ground, and the current jackets just aren't that good looking IMHO (*especially* when compared to vintage jackets from the 30s-50s). But if they make the guys and gals feel better, I guess we'll keep making 'em. Spending $100-$150 on a jacket for someone isn't that much after you've already spent millions training them, is it? ~Michael
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