Enlisted Heritage

Subject: Enlisted Heritage
From: (B2431)
Date: 8/20/2004 4:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Date: 8/20/2004 4:27 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:


"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

"WaltBJ" wrote in message
om...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...
"SteveM8597" wrote in message
...
SNIP:
I wonder if Art has bothered to read and absorb this...the good
Colonel
is
obviously qualified to lecture him in this regard.

Brooks

Kevin - I doubt very much if Art needs any advice on the contributions
made by the enlisted men of his outfit. Note that most aerial gunners
were enlisted, and valued members of the crew. BTW, I myself was a
corporal working on the flight line before I went to Aviation Cadets.

Then you have obviously not read many of Art's posts on the subject; he
has
routinely denigrated the service of those personnel that provided the
support required to get and keep his aircraft in the air, and ISTR his
getting into a little ****ing match with a former RCAF flight engineer
(where has Gord been lately?) in this group when he made a statement
regarding how some of the tasks of the flight crew were obviously beyond
the
mental capabilities of a mere sergeant.


Let's not forget that all ground crew (incl cooks, admin, supply, etc) are
"interchangeable".

And ISTR him talking down to a former longtime armament specialist about
fuze construction, damage, and repair thereof...

Pete

Art has also made it clear he genuinely feels he could have flown all his
missions without any support personnel at all.

He still hasn't figured out he was just another GI just like the rest of us
who
have ever served. I have yet to understand how his combat experience had any
more value than mine.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground crews.and
you are a bag of crap.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote


You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground
crews.and
you are a bag of crap.

Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
in here.

Pete

always valued our gunners and ground
crews.and
you are a bag of crap.

Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
in here.



Art, I likewise got the impression from your wordsthat you considered the
enlisted and especially ground crews as lower life forms compared to officer
aircrew members. If you respect the people who supported you, why not
acknowledge their contributions on your web page.

Steve

Subject: Enlisted Heritage
From: "Pete"
Date: 8/20/2004 5:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote


You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground
crews.and
you are a bag of crap.

Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
in here.

Pete


Well you got the wrong impression.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Enlisted Heritage
From: "Pete"
Date: 8/20/2004 5:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote


You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground
crews.and
you are a bag of crap.

Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
in here.

Pete


Go to my website and read " Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket". That will clarify the
situation.






Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: "Pete"
Date: 8/20/2004 7:23 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote


You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground
crews.and
you are a bag of crap.

Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
in here.

Pete

Funny how when I told him that the men who fed him, armed and maintained his
B-26, shuffled papers etc he told me their service wasn't as important as his.
When I asked him how he could do his mission without them he made it clear they
he didn't need them. He pointed out his additional duties etc as if he could do
those jobs and still fly those missions with no help from the non fliers. This
is the gist of what said. He can dance around all he wants, but he did say
this.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Subject: Enlisted Heritage
From: (B2431)
Date: 8/20/2004 7:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

From: "Pete"
Date: 8/20/2004 7:23 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote


You are a bold faced liar. I always valued our gunners and ground
crews.and
you are a bag of crap.

Maybe you did, Art. But that's not the impression we get from your writings
in here.

Pete

Funny how when I told him that the men who fed him, armed and maintained his
B-26, shuffled papers etc he told me their service wasn't as important as
his.
When I asked him how he could do his mission without them he made it clear
they
he didn't need them. He pointed out his additional duties etc as if he could
do
those jobs and still fly those missions with no help from the non fliers.
This
is the gist of what said. He can dance around all he wants, but he did say
this.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


You know where you can stick your gist asshole.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Profanity is not helping your cause Mr. Kramer. A well reasoned and
articulated response isn't going to help either, but it would be more
enjoyable reading.

Jack G


You know where you can stick your gist asshole.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Enlisted Heritage
From: "Jack G"
Date: 8/20/2004 8:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Profanity is not helping your cause Mr. Kramer. A well reasoned and
articulated response isn't going to help either, but it would be more
enjoyable reading.

Jack G

You don't like what I write, don't read it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Go to my website and read " Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket". That will clarify the
situation.

No it won't. Greigo was on your crew with you. You've made it clear you value
their service. You've also made it clear you think the guys that built your
bombs, loaded them on you plane and serviced your plane (along with the cooks,
admin, MPs, etc.) were of no value to the U.S. effort in Europe.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"