Trailer tow vehicle fuel pumps

As there seems to be a lot of interest in X/C, landouts and retrieves,
possibly from remote areas, let me bring up a problem area - crappy electric
fuel pumps.
Most vehicles these days are fuel injected with an electric fuel pump in the
tank. These electric pumps, according to an informal survey of friends and
acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually within ~50K miles and
each 50K thereafter. Failure will always occur without warning and in the
worst possible place and at the worst possible time.

According to my last tow truck driver, these crappy pumps provide him with a
nice business - he estimates 50% of his tows are failed pumps. The more
expensive the car, the more likely he is to tow it. The tow truck won't
tow your glider - just the car. This probably means leaving the trailer on
the roadside until you can come back for it. Not good.

A pump failure will cause instant engine stoppage and loss of power brakes
and steering. This means wrestling the car and glider trailer to the
roadside. Once you are on the roadside, you will find that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

One popular solution among off-roaders is to replace the in-tank pump with
an external, in-line pump that CAN be replaced on the roadside. In fact,
I'm considering two pumps in parallel with check valves and an A/B switch in
the cab. I could then just flip the switch and be on my way. I'd replace
the failed pump at my convenience.

The downside of in-line pumps is they are noisy - at least they can be heard
operating in an otherwise quiet vehicle. Some soundproofing around the pump
can take care of this.



Bill Daniels

Bill,

One way to 'solve' the noisy fuel pump is to drive
a diesel pickup truck. Damn diesel engines are so
noisy, even at idle, they can drown out the sound of
a few extra fuel pumps, sirens, air horns, bickering
neighbors, howling dogs and screaming babies...

(I'm talking Ford, Chevy, Dodge (Cummins) diesels.
The Mercedes and Volkswagon diesels available in America
are quite civilized.)

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA



At 02:42 03 March 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
As there seems to be a lot of interest in X/C, landouts
and retrieves,
possibly from remote areas, let me bring up a problem
area - crappy electric
fuel pumps.
Most vehicles these days are fuel injected with an
electric fuel pump in the
tank. These electric pumps, according to an informal
survey of friends and
acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually
within ~50K miles and
each 50K thereafter. Failure will always occur without
warning and in the
worst possible place and at the worst possible time.

According to my last tow truck driver, these crappy
pumps provide him with a
nice business - he estimates 50% of his tows are failed
pumps. The more
expensive the car, the more likely he is to tow it.
The tow truck won't
tow your glider - just the car. This probably means
leaving the trailer on
the roadside until you can come back for it. Not good.

A pump failure will cause instant engine stoppage and
loss of power brakes
and steering. This means wrestling the car and glider
trailer to the
roadside. Once you are on the roadside, you will find
that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you
can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist
where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

One popular solution among off-roaders is to replace
the in-tank pump with
an external, in-line pump that CAN be replaced on the
roadside. In fact,
I'm considering two pumps in parallel with check valves
and an A/B switch in
the cab. I could then just flip the switch and be
on my way. I'd replace
the failed pump at my convenience.

The downside of in-line pumps is they are noisy - at
least they can be heard
operating in an otherwise quiet vehicle. Some soundproofing
around the pump
can take care of this.



Bill Daniels

These electric pumps, according to an informal survey of friends and
acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually within ~50K miles and
each 50K thereafter.

That's counter to my personal experience. I've done four fuel pumps
for my Volvo tow vehicles; none of them let go prior to the 200,000
mile mark. All of the replacements outlasted the vehicles.

Once you are on the roadside, you will find that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

Disagree:

A) Everything is DIY for the resourceful and motivated.

B) All of the cars for which I've replaced the in-tank pump allowed
access through a panel in the trunk or under the cargo deck. None so
far have required dropping the tank.

C) For many cars with Bosch K-Jetronic, LH-Jetronic, and similar
systems, there are actually two pumps: an in-tank centrifugal pump and
an external constant-displacement pump. The in-tank pump just delivers
fuel to the main pump, and is critical only at 1/4 tank fuel level and
below. The usual sign of a failed or failing in-tank pump is poor
running below 1/4 tank, and whining noises from the main pump.

D) In my experience, failure of fuel pump relays is far more common
than failure of the pump. Usually they can be fixed by peeling them
open and resoldering the crack-prone joints where the heavy relay
frame meets the circuit board.

I have never had to replace a fuel pump... "knocking on the gas can"...
and I hope I never do.

BT

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
As there seems to be a lot of interest in X/C, landouts and retrieves,
possibly from remote areas, let me bring up a problem area - crappy
electric fuel pumps.
Most vehicles these days are fuel injected with an electric fuel pump in
the tank. These electric pumps, according to an informal survey of
friends and acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually within
~50K miles and each 50K thereafter. Failure will always occur without
warning and in the worst possible place and at the worst possible time.

According to my last tow truck driver, these crappy pumps provide him with
a nice business - he estimates 50% of his tows are failed pumps. The more
expensive the car, the more likely he is to tow it. The tow truck won't
tow your glider - just the car. This probably means leaving the trailer
on the roadside until you can come back for it. Not good.

A pump failure will cause instant engine stoppage and loss of power brakes
and steering. This means wrestling the car and glider trailer to the
roadside. Once you are on the roadside, you will find that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

One popular solution among off-roaders is to replace the in-tank pump with
an external, in-line pump that CAN be replaced on the roadside. In fact,
I'm considering two pumps in parallel with check valves and an A/B switch
in the cab. I could then just flip the switch and be on my way. I'd
replace the failed pump at my convenience.

The downside of in-line pumps is they are noisy - at least they can be
heard operating in an otherwise quiet vehicle. Some soundproofing around
the pump can take care of this.



Bill Daniels

In article .com,
"Bob Kuykendall" wrote:

These electric pumps, according to an informal survey of friends and
acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually within ~50K miles and
each 50K thereafter.

That's counter to my personal experience. I've done four fuel pumps
for my Volvo tow vehicles; none of them let go prior to the 200,000
mile mark. All of the replacements outlasted the vehicles.

Once you are on the roadside, you will find that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

Disagree:

A) Everything is DIY for the resourceful and motivated.

B) All of the cars for which I've replaced the in-tank pump allowed
access through a panel in the trunk or under the cargo deck. None so
far have required dropping the tank.

C) For many cars with Bosch K-Jetronic, LH-Jetronic, and similar
systems, there are actually two pumps: an in-tank centrifugal pump and
an external constant-displacement pump. The in-tank pump just delivers
fuel to the main pump, and is critical only at 1/4 tank fuel level and
below. The usual sign of a failed or failing in-tank pump is poor
running below 1/4 tank, and whining noises from the main pump.

D) In my experience, failure of fuel pump relays is far more common
than failure of the pump. Usually they can be fixed by peeling them
open and resoldering the crack-prone joints where the heavy relay
frame meets the circuit board.

My tow vehicle is a '92 Dodge full size hightop van, 6 cylinder. It only
has one fuel pump and it's in the tank. No access to it from on top. The
tank has to be dropped. The fuel pump failed at 140k miles - exactly at
the halfway point of a 350 mile trip - on Thanksgiving day.

Nearly every system on this van has had a failure. I think I've replaced
everything but the engine block and one of the hubcaps. I really enjoy
the hightop room, but this thing is a piece of crap. Glad I didn't pay
much for it. Oh, and take a look at the repair manual for these things.
Dodge full size vans had essentially no mechanical changes from 1977
through at least 2001. So much for innovation and improvement. If Toyota
ever makes a full size van, I'm gettin' one.

On Mar 3, 12:58 am, Berry wrote:
In article .com,
"Bob Kuykendall" wrote:



These electric pumps, according to an informal survey of friends and
acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually within ~50K miles and
each 50K thereafter.

That's counter to my personal experience. I've done four fuel pumps
for my Volvo tow vehicles; none of them let go prior to the 200,000
mile mark. All of the replacements outlasted the vehicles.

Once you are on the roadside, you will find that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

Disagree:

A) Everything is DIY for the resourceful and motivated.

B) All of the cars for which I've replaced the in-tank pump allowed
access through a panel in the trunk or under the cargo deck. None so
far have required dropping the tank.

C) For many cars with Bosch K-Jetronic, LH-Jetronic, and similar
systems, there are actually two pumps: an in-tank centrifugal pump and
an external constant-displacement pump. The in-tank pump just delivers
fuel to the main pump, and is critical only at 1/4 tank fuel level and
below. The usual sign of a failed or failing in-tank pump is poor
running below 1/4 tank, and whining noises from the main pump.

D) In my experience, failure of fuel pump relays is far more common
than failure of the pump. Usually they can be fixed by peeling them
open and resoldering the crack-prone joints where the heavy relay
frame meets the circuit board.

My tow vehicle is a '92 Dodge full size hightop van, 6 cylinder. It only
has one fuel pump and it's in the tank. No access to it from on top. The
tank has to be dropped. The fuel pump failed at 140k miles - exactly at
the halfway point of a 350 mile trip - on Thanksgiving day.

Nearly every system on this van has had a failure. I think I've replaced
everything but the engine block and one of the hubcaps. I really enjoy
the hightop room, but this thing is a piece of crap. Glad I didn't pay
much for it. Oh, and take a look at the repair manual for these things.
Dodge full size vans had essentially no mechanical changes from 1977
through at least 2001. So much for innovation and improvement. If Toyota
ever makes a full size van, I'm gettin' one.

Bill,
why the sudden concern about landing out? and finding any reason
possible to avoid it at all costs? Mechanical breakdowns are a
possibility no matter what we drive (or fly). Its something we may
have to deal with and a risk we take.

wrote:

why the sudden concern about landing out? and finding any reason
possible to avoid it at all costs? Mechanical breakdowns are a
possibility no matter what we drive (or fly). Its something we may
have to deal with and a risk we take.

Aren't you flying something that resembles more a hollowed-out log
than a mechanical device?

It's almost flyin' time again, and we are just getting antsy, that's
all. There's almost nothing else left to think about now, except
trailer and tow-car breakdowns, parachute water landings, and of
course the Cherry-Patch.


Jack

Aren't you flying something that resembles more a hollowed-out log
than a mechanical device?


HA. Only when Im in my glider. That other 2 or 300 hours I get in
the air every year is behind a stinky loud engine. Sometimes 2!

Bob, I don't know the make/model list for those that do or don't have
access hatches on the rear load floor. Unfortunately, the ones I have
encountered don't have them. However, removing the pump /fuel level sender
from a partially filled gas tank isn't for the faint of heart - especially
if you worry about things like sparks.

Again, so far, none have been relays or fuses - those things being checked
first since they are easy. It's always been the pump itself. They're just
plastic crap that couldn't possibly last the life of the vehicle.

The entire canister containing the pump and sending unit has to be replaced
at a parts cost of around $400 and $400 labor. The shop will take at least
a day to do the job. If you have to have this done, take it to a dealer and
get a warranty on the work. Daimler/Chysler has paid for 4 of my pumps.
Even though they were replaced at no charge, I've replaced mine with a heavy
duty off-road racing unit that I can easilly change on the roadside in about
ten minutes

Bill


"Bob Kuykendall" wrote in message
oups.com...

These electric pumps, according to an informal survey of friends and
acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually within ~50K miles
and
each 50K thereafter.

That's counter to my personal experience. I've done four fuel pumps
for my Volvo tow vehicles; none of them let go prior to the 200,000
mile mark. All of the replacements outlasted the vehicles.

Once you are on the roadside, you will find that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you can do but call a
tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.

Disagree:

A) Everything is DIY for the resourceful and motivated.

B) All of the cars for which I've replaced the in-tank pump allowed
access through a panel in the trunk or under the cargo deck. None so
far have required dropping the tank.

C) For many cars with Bosch K-Jetronic, LH-Jetronic, and similar
systems, there are actually two pumps: an in-tank centrifugal pump and
an external constant-displacement pump. The in-tank pump just delivers
fuel to the main pump, and is critical only at 1/4 tank fuel level and
below. The usual sign of a failed or failing in-tank pump is poor
running below 1/4 tank, and whining noises from the main pump.

D) In my experience, failure of fuel pump relays is far more common
than failure of the pump. Usually they can be fixed by peeling them
open and resoldering the crack-prone joints where the heavy relay
frame meets the circuit board.

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
...
Most vehicles these days are fuel injected with an electric fuel pump in
the tank. These electric pumps, according to an informal survey of
friends and acquaintances, fail with alarming frequency - usually within
~50K miles and each 50K thereafter. Failure will always occur without
warning and in the worst possible place and at the worst possible time.

... Once you are on the roadside, you will find that no matter how
good you may be at fixing cars, there is nothing you can do but call a tow
truck since pump replacement requires a high bay hoist where the gas tank
can be removed. It just isn't a DIY job.
...

I've only replaced one - one of my Villagers started to get noisy at about
130K so I replaced it "just in case". I did have to drop the tank but it
isn't that hard with a jack and jackstands...
My '97 with 120K is still fine, and my '90 Ranger still has the original
pump at 130K but I did have to pull the tank to fix a leak in the fill hose.
Of course, I wouldn't be able to replace one on the side of the road with
just what I carry with me (which doesn't include a pump). Timing belts fall
in the same catagory.

I don't know what kind of cars you and your friends are driving, but you
might want to consider switching to Fords - I've never had one with less
than 100K leave me at the side of the road.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
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