Israel pays the price for buying only Boeing (and not Airbus)

On 2 Jul 2003 17:45:33 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...

Yep. We give the Israelis beaucoup bucks, and they turn around and
sell their most advanced military products to the PRC while
simultaneously engaging in espionage activities here in the US. One
hell of a two way street you got there.

1. The money America "give" is subsidizing the American industries and
hurting the Israeli industries.

Ten why does Israel accept it? Is the government really that stupid?
Or are they grateful for the aid in filling a big hole in their
budget?

2. Despite the fact that the American industries are heavily
subsidized they can't compete against the Israeli industries in price
and in many cases in quality.

And yet the Israel products repeatedly lose out to US products that
are "inferior" and "more expensive". Again, is Israel really that
stupid or are you missing something.

Something doesn't gel here. If Israel would be better off in terms of
cost and quality without the aid, then why take it?

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message ...
"Quant" wrote in message
om...
wrote in message
. ..
On 1 Jul 2003 15:34:02 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On 30 Jun 2003 18:31:07 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

(Quant) wrote in message
. com...
This post is specially for brooks.

Hebrew:
http://www.globes.co.il/serve/globes...asp?did=701548


Israel Aircraft Industries was excluded from the Airbus 380
project
because of a political decision of the goverment of Israel to buy
only
Boeing planes by El Al.

What brand of cheese do you prefer to go with that whine? Hey, turn
down the billions in US dollars your nation receives each year from
the US taxpayers, then you can come back and whine about losing out
on
this contract as much as you want

So you acknowledge that "aid" to Israel is nothing but a quid pro
quo.

LOL! Not hardly. You need to retake that course in logic--the salient
points apparently did not stick with you. I am merely pointing out
that whining about your economic/military dependency upon the US and
any negative impacts can easily be rendered moot by declaring you
won't accept further US aid (like *that* will ever happen).


American defense contractors would not be too happy if that were to
happen.


Israeli defense contractors will be (very happy).
Friendship between US and Israel is a two way street.

Yes, America will not hate Israel, like "old Europe".


I'm not sure what you intended to say, but I recognize the fact that
America (as contrary to Europe) is dealing with Israel fairly and
without prejudice or hate. I am thankful for that and I think that the
existence of the American nation is the best gift Israel and the world
could get.

In message -
(Kevin Brooks) writes:


[snip]

points apparently did not stick with you. I am merely pointing out
that whining about your economic/military dependency upon the US and
any negative impacts can easily be rendered moot by declaring you
won't accept further US aid (like *that* will ever happen).

It started to happen gradually when Benjamin Netaniyahoo was at the
PM post: Israel started on its own a multi-year initiative to reduce the
aid sum by 100M$ per year. But he only stayed 3 years at this post -
after failing to prevent Netaniyahoo's win in 1996, in 1999 elections
the US made every effort to not let it fail again and with lots of
US-funded pro-Barak "associations" Netaniyahoo lost to the most
worthless PM I remember. Needless to say, Barak stopped the process
of gradual reduction of aid that Netaniyahoo started. In general, US
administrations from both sides prefare Israeli elections to be
won by our left (which act to increase the ammount of aid we take) than by
our right (which act to gradually decrease the ammount of aid). It almost
looks like US administrations are not interested in Israel stopping
asking for aid. Why? I had a hunch but you gave a figure few lines
below which supports my hunch:



American defense contractors would not be too happy if that were to
happen.

Please. Take a gander at what portion of US defense exports go to
Israel; the last figures I found (covering 97-99) indicated that
Israel accounted for just over 5% of total US sales. Given that even

Only 5% of US weapons given away for free to Israel? That explains why
US administrations would prefare things to remain as they are now.

The F-16 alone has about 800 changes in them suggested by IAF as a result
of their operation and which worth billions to the F-16s manufacturer when
selling to other states. In a similar way, almost any US weapon in IDF has
lots of "bugs" found and reported, which translates to higher profits when
selling to other states. Also, there are other issues that salespeople
know worth a lot:

The first A-G use of F-16 was by IAF, the destruction of the Iraqi reactor.
The first A-A victory of F-16 also happened in IAF few weeks earlier.
The first A-A victory of F-15 also happened in IAF.

When a salesperson from General Dynamics (those old days, Lockheed today,
IIRC) competes on a fat contract against, say a salesperson from Marcell
Dassault (sp?) from one of these other 95% states, the words "our product
had been tested by Israel" worth LOTS of money. So it makes a perfect
business sense: give away 5% of weapons to Israel, which'll debug them
and most probably use them in real combat and after that use the weapon
record in IDF to rip profits from the remaining 95% of the market.

Like another poster mentioned in this thread, nothing is given for free.

************************************************** ****************************
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail: *
************************************************** ****************************
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name. Sorry, SPAM trap.
___
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(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
(JGB) wrote in message . com...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message

The MAIN reason why Israel
gets $3B in aid annually is so that US defense contactors can sell Egypt,
Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Jordan $5 billion in arms annually without
opposition from AIPAC, or increased Israel arms sales to China and other
states we'd rather they not sell their own advanced technologies to.
It IS quid pro quo, and not just based on sentiments.

Come now. We were providing extensive monetary aid to Israel before we
started selling major/modern arms to the neighboring Arabs.

Israel did get mostly civilian aid to help Israel integrate millions
of Jewish immigrants, but it was relatively little compared to the
aid that began to flow after the Six Day War when Israel proved its
capability of standing up to the SOviet Union, and Johnson saw Israel
as a potential asset. The US arms embargo to BOTH sides then was
effectively
jettisoned, allowing for the US to become the major armorer of both
sides
in the conflict.


From what
I can recall, israel held out quite firmly for a significant aid
increase and additional one-time funds (i.e., paying for new airbases
to replace those lost when they gave up the Sinai) before they would
agree to sign the peace treaty with Egypt (Carter being oh-so-willing
to pay that tribute in return for his moment of glory).

I can understand why Israel, which had been pressured THREE TIMES
since
1948 to repeatedly return the Sinai to Egypt, including the oil fields
that Israel had developed the last time to get US compensation, but
for the life
of me I can't understand the $2.8 B annual tribute to Egypt which
received
from Israel a much improved Sinai! Not only does Israel lost strategic
depth and costly infrastructure, but its own US aid is offset by a
similar
amount of aid to Egypt. Can you explain to me the rationale, or how
Israel
gained in that "bargain?" The Egyptian army today, thanks to US
training
and arms, is far more dangerous than it ever was under SOviet
tutelage.

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:50:00 -0400 Peter Kemp
wrote:

:On 2 Jul 2003 17:45:33 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...

: Yep. We give the Israelis beaucoup bucks, and they turn around and
: sell their most advanced military products to the PRC while
: simultaneously engaging in espionage activities here in the US. One
: hell of a two way street you got there.

:1. The money America "give" is subsidizing the American industries and
:hurting the Israeli industries.

:Ten why does Israel accept it? Is the government really that stupid?

It allows the Israeli government to defer hard choices.

And, yes, it is stupid.

:Or are they grateful for the aid in filling a big hole in their
:budget?

Some are.

Some aren't, because making the hard choice would be much more beneficial in
the long term and thus accepting the money ends up hurting.

:2. Despite the fact that the American industries are heavily
:subsidized they can't compete against the Israeli industries in price
:and in many cases in quality.

:And yet the Israel products repeatedly lose out to US products that
:are "inferior" and "more expensive".

False.

Of course you can attempt to prove me wrong by supplying examples, but
supplying proof is rarely the interest of the typical Holocaust denier.

: Again, is Israel really that
:stupid or are you missing something.

Could be.

:Something doesn't gel here. If Israel would be better off in terms of
:cost and quality without the aid, then why take it?

It allows the Israeli government to defer making hard choices.

--
Binyamin Dissen
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Peter Kemp wrote in message . ..
On 2 Jul 2003 17:45:33 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...

Yep. We give the Israelis beaucoup bucks, and they turn around and
sell their most advanced military products to the PRC while
simultaneously engaging in espionage activities here in the US. One
hell of a two way street you got there.

1. The money America "give" is subsidizing the American industries and
hurting the Israeli industries.

Ten why does Israel accept it? Is the government really that stupid?
Or are they grateful for the aid in filling a big hole in their
budget?

2. Despite the fact that the American industries are heavily
subsidized they can't compete against the Israeli industries in price
and in many cases in quality.

And yet the Israel products repeatedly lose out to US products that
are "inferior" and "more expensive". Again, is Israel really that
stupid or are you missing something.


I also recommand you too take a look at the following sites:
http://www.iai.co.il/
http://www.rafael.co.il/
http://www.elbit.co.il/products11.htm

and here is a small message apearing now on Rafael site's frontpage:

"U.S. Air Force upgrades 47 targeting pods to Litening AT; completes
integration of Litening ER on F-16 Block 40, 50."

IAI, Elbit, (and soon Rafael too) are profitable companies. They
couldn't present wide variety of high quality products without having
customers.


Something doesn't gel here. If Israel would be better off in terms of
cost and quality without the aid, then why take it?

On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:01:12 +0300, Binyamin Dissen
wrote:

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:50:00 -0400 Peter Kemp
wrote:

:On 2 Jul 2003 17:45:33 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

:2. Despite the fact that the American industries are heavily
:subsidized they can't compete against the Israeli industries in price
:and in many cases in quality.

:And yet the Israel products repeatedly lose out to US products that
:are "inferior" and "more expensive".

False.

Of course you can attempt to prove me wrong by supplying examples, but
supplying proof is rarely the interest of the typical Holocaust denier.

Holocaust denier? Me? I suggest you alter your medication mate, as
I've said nothing of the sort *ever*, and I'd like to see you show one
iota of evidence that I have supported such notions.

As for proof, the IDF use of the M-16 vice the Galil, or the F-16 vice
the Lavi

On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 06:42:39 -0400 Peter Kemp
wrote:

:On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:01:12 +0300, Binyamin Dissen
wrote:

:On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:50:00 -0400 Peter Kemp
:wrote:

::On 2 Jul 2003 17:45:33 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

::2. Despite the fact that the American industries are heavily
::subsidized they can't compete against the Israeli industries in price
::and in many cases in quality.

::And yet the Israel products repeatedly lose out to US products that
::are "inferior" and "more expensive".

:False.

:Of course you can attempt to prove me wrong by supplying examples, but
:supplying proof is rarely the interest of the typical Holocaust denier.

:Holocaust denier? Me? I suggest you alter your medication mate, as
:I've said nothing of the sort *ever*, and I'd like to see you show one
:iota of evidence that I have supported such notions.

:As for proof, the IDF use of the M-16 vice the Galil, or the F-16 vice
:the Lavi

Have you compared the prices of each to the GOI?

In these cases the inferior product is also cheaper.

--
Binyamin Dissen
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Arie,

I just saw the following headline in Globes:

"Netanyahu undecided on using US loan guarantees this year".

(http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...702622&fid=942)


and I thought that whatever the reasons he has for not using the
guarantees, not using them will immediately project independence and
feeling of Israeli economic strength.

(Quant) wrote in message . com...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
(Quant) wrote in message . com...
wrote in message . ..
On 1 Jul 2003 15:34:02 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

wrote in message . ..
On 30 Jun 2003 18:31:07 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

(Quant) wrote in message . com...
This post is specially for brooks.

Hebrew:
http://www.globes.co.il/serve/globes...asp?did=701548


Israel Aircraft Industries was excluded from the Airbus 380 project
because of a political decision of the goverment of Israel to buy only
Boeing planes by El Al.

What brand of cheese do you prefer to go with that whine? Hey, turn
down the billions in US dollars your nation receives each year from
the US taxpayers, then you can come back and whine about losing out on
this contract as much as you want

So you acknowledge that "aid" to Israel is nothing but a quid pro quo.

LOL! Not hardly. You need to retake that course in logic--the salient
points apparently did not stick with you. I am merely pointing out
that whining about your economic/military dependency upon the US and
any negative impacts can easily be rendered moot by declaring you
won't accept further US aid (like *that* will ever happen).


American defense contractors would not be too happy if that were to
happen.


Israeli defense contractors will be (very happy).
Friendship between US and Israel is a two way street.

Yep. We give the Israelis beaucoup bucks, and they turn around and
sell their most advanced military products to the PRC while
simultaneously engaging in espionage activities here in the US. One
hell of a two way street you got there.

Brooks



Brooks knows the facts but he doesn't let them to confuse him.

No, I just recognize the distinct difference between "facts" and the
laughable crud you have been peddling.

1. The money America "give" is subsidizing the American industries and
hurting the Israeli industries.

So Israel is inherently *stupid*, accepting these funds against their
own best interests? LOL! I don't think so...do you?

2. Despite the fact that the American industries are heavily
subsidized they can't compete against the Israeli industries in price
and in many cases in quality.

That is a good one. Evidence of all of those rampant subsidies? And
when was the last time the international market screamed for delivery
of the latest *Israeli* automobiles, trucks, computers, aircraft,
etc.?

Instead of whining, develop your own
better weapons and you don't have to worry that somebody else has
better technology than yours.

Which really explains why israel buys so many "inferior* US weapons,
right? You apparently *do* think the israelis are stupid...

Brooks