Badwater Bill has left the earth to soar with the eagles!

RST Engineering wrote:

Not if you follow my logic if and when NTSB makes a determination.

Jim


I dunno, Jim.

If I saw that I was going in, I think I'd pull the power...


--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

My guess, with admittedly, little actual information to back it up is
that the canopy opened and Bill and Janice's clothes which were loose in
back of the seats began to fly out of the airplane. As the articles
flew about the cockpit and out of the plane something flew over Bill's
head and covered his eyes... with no vision, Bill was unable to maintain
level flight.

The airplane entered a left low wing turn to the ground. With no
visual references, Bill didn't know what was happening until the
airplane contacted the ground.

With Bill's level of flight experience I know it had to be something
completely unavoidable and impossible to correct.

Why the canopy opened I have no idea... nor any inclination to
speculate... We lost a wonderful individual... someone that was a
person that contributed to life and to the world.

Bill didn't hesitate to state his opinion nor his thoughts on life or
people. He alienated a lot of people because of that but, in my
opinion, he was right about just about everyone he exposed... I could
name several folks that thought they were more than they really were and
Bill exposed them for the frauds they were... Bill could afford to pay
for pretty much anything but he had no use for anyone that expected him
to cover their expenses, too.... If he wanted to, well then that was
ok, but for someone to simply expect Bill would pay for them, too...
well, that wasn't going to happen...

I first heard about Bill's passing a week ago. I was in shock... Bill,
to me, was immortal... I thought I'd be able to call him up on the phone
next year or 10 years from now to simply talk about what he was doing,
what I was doing, and to ask his advice (and ignore it if it didn't
sound that good...). I'm still unwilling to believe Badwater Bill is no
more..

I've read over and over again some of Bill's emails and posts and it's
hard to understand that Bill's gone.. It was like when Tony died.. It
was a couple years before I could remove Tony's email address from my
email address file.

When my Dad died about 20 years ago this was in the handout at the
memorial service... I offer it as a tribute to Badwater Bill Phillips...
a man that made many friends, a few enemies and made a difference to the
world....

Do not stand at my grave and weep
I am not there; I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow,
I am the diamond glints on snow,
I am the sun on ripened grain,
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning's hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circling flight.
I am the soft starlight at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry,
I am not there; I did not die.


John



cavelamb himself wrote:
RST Engineering wrote:

Not if you follow my logic if and when NTSB makes a determination.

Jim


I dunno, Jim.

If I saw that I was going in, I think I'd pull the power...

On Oct 27, 11:09*pm, John Ammeter
wrote:
My guess, with admittedly, little actual information to back it up is
that the canopy opened and Bill and Janice's clothes which were loose in
back of the seats began to fly out of the airplane. *As the articles
flew about the cockpit and out of the plane something flew over Bill's
head and covered his eyes... with no vision, Bill was unable to maintain
level flight.

* The airplane entered a left low wing turn to the ground. With no
visual *references, Bill didn't know what was happening until the
airplane contacted the ground.

With Bill's level of flight experience I know it had to be something
completely unavoidable and impossible to correct.

Why the canopy opened I have no idea... *nor any inclination to
speculate... *We lost a wonderful individual... someone that was a
person that contributed to life and to the world.

Bill didn't hesitate to state his opinion nor his thoughts on life or
people. *He alienated a lot of people because of that but, in my
opinion, he was right about just about everyone he exposed... I could
name several folks that thought they were more than they really were and
Bill exposed them for the frauds they were... *Bill could afford to pay
for pretty much anything but he had no use for anyone that expected him
to cover their expenses, too.... *If he wanted to, well then that was
ok, but for someone to simply expect Bill would pay for them, too...
well, that wasn't going to happen...

I first heard about Bill's passing a week ago. *I was in shock... Bill,
to me, was immortal... I thought I'd be able to call him up on the phone
next year or 10 years from now to simply talk about what he was doing,
what I was doing, and to ask his advice (and ignore it if it didn't
sound that good...). *I'm still unwilling to believe Badwater Bill is no
more..

I've read over and over again some of Bill's emails and posts and it's
hard to understand that Bill's gone.. It was like when Tony died.. It
was a couple years before I could remove Tony's email address from my
email address file.

When my Dad died about 20 years ago this was in the handout at the
memorial service... I offer it as a tribute to Badwater Bill Phillips...
a man that made many friends, a few enemies and made a difference to the
world....

Do not stand at my grave and weep
I am not there; I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow,
I am the diamond glints on snow,
I am the sun on ripened grain,
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning's hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circling flight.
I am the soft starlight at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry,
I am not there; I did not die.

John



cavelamb himself wrote:
RST Engineering wrote:

Not if you follow my logic if and when NTSB makes a determination.

Jim

I dunno, Jim.

If I saw that I was going in, I think I'd pull the power...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

John,

Yes, there is very little information available to draw any conclusion
as to the cause but I think you are probably on the right track. We
had one of the KIS builders who destroyed his plane several years back
when the pilots door opened in flight. He was also in the takeoff
phase and shifted around in his seat in an attempt to reach and close
the door. In the process, he shifted the bottom seat cushion and
wedged it against the stick pushing it forward. He impacted the
ground before he could recover and regain control. It that case, he
was lucky and he was not killed but was seriously injured. It only
takes a momentary distraction at low altitude and/or slow flight to
cause such an accident.

This was not the first off field forced landing for Bill and I have to
believe that if he had been in control, he would have brought the
plane down with only light damage.

BobR wrote:

We
had one of the KIS builders who destroyed his plane several years back
when the pilots door opened in flight. He was also in the takeoff
phase and shifted around in his seat in an attempt to reach and close
the door. In the process, he shifted the bottom seat cushion and
wedged it against the stick pushing it forward. He impacted the
ground before he could recover and regain control.


It only
takes a momentary distraction at low altitude and/or slow flight to
cause such an accident.



Isn't that why instructors teach us to "FLY THE PLANE" first? An open
door should never cause a crash unless maybe they are suicide doors like
on the old Fords...fortunately, I can't ever recall seeing a plane with
that style door.

Scott

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:09:28 -0700, John Ammeter
wrote:

My guess, with admittedly, little actual information to back it up is
that the canopy opened and Bill and Janice's clothes which were loose in
back of the seats began to fly out of the airplane. As the articles
flew about the cockpit and out of the plane something flew over Bill's
head and covered his eyes... with no vision, Bill was unable to maintain
level flight.

Depends on how the airflow's going in the cabin. The canopy hinges aren't flush
with the forward cowl; as the canopy rises, a gap appears under the front edge.
Seems like the airflow from up front would block something in the aft storage
from moving far enough forward to wrap itself around the pilot's head. Though
if a chart or something had been on the glare shield, that could have come aft
and blocked his vision.

Note, too, that the witnesses said the plane remained at a low altitude. I
think a pilot's natural reaction when reacting to an emergency would be to gain
some height. He didn't, which might indicate that he thought it would be
necessary to bring the plane around and land it to fix the canopy problem.

The other possibility, of course, is a John Denver sort of accident; that he
became so focused on the canopy problem that he lost situational awareness.
There is at least one indication that he was rushed that day...note that he took
off with a 10-20 knot gusting tailwind. Did he rush the checklist and fail to
lock the canopy? When it opened, did he put too much attention to trying to
close it and avoid wasting time returning to the airport? Bill *did* have a bit
of a temper.

Mulling it over, though, I'm starting to doubt the "lost clothing indicates
canopy open" theory. Remember, not only would it take suction to raise clothing
lying lose in the baggage bay, it takes a source of air behind the items to
"push" towards the gap. Put your mouth over a pop bottle and suck, and nothing
will come up. Use a straw, and air flows in to push the liquid up the straw.
Where was the source of air pushing the items from the baggage bay?

Also, if you open the sunroof of a car at highway speeds, you get a lot of noise
but your hat remains firmly on your head...seems odd that the suction in the
Lancair would have been so bad that items lying loose in the baggage bay were
physically lifted several feet.

Finally, for that matter...who piles loose clothing in a baggage bay? I'm
presuming they'd stayed at the cabin and had driven down to the airport. Seems
unlikely that they'd just piled clothes loose in the car, then transferred the
pile to the airplane. Could have been just whatever coats they'd worn that
morning, of course.

I'm starting to wonder if we're looking at a more serious failure, here. My
guess would focus more on a baggage door failure...except I don't think the
plane *had* a baggage door.

Fortunately, his wife survived and will hopefully be able to describe the
sequence of events.

Ron Wanttaja

On Oct 29, 9:58*am, Ron Wanttaja wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:09:28 -0700, John Ammeter
wrote:

My guess, with admittedly, little actual information to back it up is
that the canopy opened and Bill and Janice's clothes which were loose in
back of the seats began to fly out of the airplane. *As the articles
flew about the cockpit and out of the plane something flew over Bill's
head and covered his eyes... with no vision, Bill was unable to maintain
level flight.

Depends on how the airflow's going in the cabin. *The canopy hinges aren't flush
with the forward cowl; as the canopy rises, a gap appears under the front edge.
Seems like the airflow from up front would block something in the aft storage
from moving far enough forward to wrap itself around the pilot's head. *Though
if a chart or something had been on the glare shield, that could have come aft
and blocked his vision. *

Note, too, that the witnesses said the plane remained at a low altitude. *I
think a pilot's natural reaction when reacting to an emergency would be to gain
some height. *He didn't, which might indicate that he thought it would be
necessary to bring the plane around and land it to fix the canopy problem..

The other possibility, of course, is a John Denver sort of accident; that he
became so focused on the canopy problem that he lost situational awareness.
There is at least one indication that he was rushed that day...note that he took
off with a 10-20 knot gusting tailwind. *Did he rush the checklist and fail to
lock the canopy? *When it opened, did he put too much attention to trying to
close it and avoid wasting time returning to the airport? *Bill *did* have a bit
of a temper.

Mulling it over, though, I'm starting to doubt the "lost clothing indicates
canopy open" theory. *Remember, not only would it take suction to raise clothing
lying lose in the baggage bay, it takes a source of air behind the items to
"push" towards the gap. *Put your mouth over a pop bottle and suck, and nothing
will come up. *Use a straw, and air flows in to push the liquid up the straw.
Where was the source of air pushing the items from the baggage bay?

Also, if you open the sunroof of a car at highway speeds, you get a lot of noise
but your hat remains firmly on your head...seems odd that the suction in the
Lancair would have been so bad that items lying loose in the baggage bay were
physically lifted several feet.

Finally, for that matter...who piles loose clothing in a baggage bay? *I'm
presuming they'd stayed at the cabin and had driven down to the airport. *Seems
unlikely that they'd just piled clothes loose in the car, then transferred the
pile to the airplane. *Could have been just whatever coats they'd worn that
morning, of course.

I'm starting to wonder if we're looking at a more serious failure, here. *My
guess would focus more on a baggage door failure...except I don't think the
plane *had* a baggage door. *

Fortunately, his wife survived and will hopefully be able to describe the
sequence of events.

Ron Wanttaja

If you look at the photos of the plane it is clear that there was no
baggage door and that the canopy opened from the rear and hinged at
the front. That configuration whould seem to actually hold the canopy
closed when in flight. I agree with you that it would be unusual to
develop enough vacuum to pull loose garments from behind the seats.
Just doesn't add up but hopefully Janice will recover and be able to
fill in the blanks.

OK, so long as we are wild ass guessing, consider this scenario...

Engine fails for whatever reason shortly after takeoff. Knowing the landing
is about to become rather bumpy, and having survived a few forced landings,
Bill opens the canopy on purpose so that it doesn't become jammed due to
impact. (Yes, that is instinctive when an engine fails. Trust me.)

Canopy open and pressure air at the forward end ruffles up some clothes in
the baggage bin. Vacuum from open canopy does the rest.

In his fixation with the canopy, airspeed diminishes along with enough lift
to keep the mother flying. THe rest is quite explainable.

Jim

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it."
--Aristotle

RST Engineering wrote:
OK, so long as we are wild ass guessing, consider this scenario...

Engine fails for whatever reason shortly after takeoff. Knowing the landing
is about to become rather bumpy, and having survived a few forced landings,
Bill opens the canopy on purpose so that it doesn't become jammed due to
impact. (Yes, that is instinctive when an engine fails. Trust me.)

Canopy open and pressure air at the forward end ruffles up some clothes in
the baggage bin. Vacuum from open canopy does the rest.

In his fixation with the canopy, airspeed diminishes along with enough lift
to keep the mother flying. THe rest is quite explainable.

A couple of other points catch my eye in the NTSB preliminary. First,
one propeller blade separated from the hub. The blade was within the
debris field, so it's no more than 200 feet from the hub. Probably got
separated on impact and thrown the distance. But if something *had*
happened to the prop, the shaking would not only probably have popped
the canopy open but might have even made the plane uncontrollable.

Second, the left wingtip hit the ground first. So why does the first
point of impact feature *green* lens fragments?

Ron Wanttaja

On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:22:04 +0000, Scott
wrote:

BobR wrote:

We
had one of the KIS builders who destroyed his plane several years back
when the pilots door opened in flight. He was also in the takeoff
phase and shifted around in his seat in an attempt to reach and close
the door. In the process, he shifted the bottom seat cushion and
wedged it against the stick pushing it forward. He impacted the
ground before he could recover and regain control.


It only
takes a momentary distraction at low altitude and/or slow flight to
cause such an accident.



Isn't that why instructors teach us to "FLY THE PLANE" first? An open
door should never cause a crash unless maybe they are suicide doors like
on the old Fords...fortunately, I can't ever recall seeing a plane with
that style door.

GP-4 for one. One of the first builders had his come open, took off
the vertical stab and that was the rest of the story.

Roger (K8RI)

Scott

When the canopy comes open I think you'll find a gap all along the
sides and at the front. I'd guess it pops up a couple inches, but I'm
not at all familiar with the plane in the air.

I do know that in a Bonanza with the door open about 3" it does one
Hell of a job cleaning the carpets.

Roger (K8RI)