Ads-b and sailplanes

There was is Nothing wrong with the language, it is the same as for the transponder requirement.
Within the 30nm arc defining the mode c veil, if the ceiling of the associated class b is 9000msl, you cannot climb above 9000 without the proper equipment.
If the class b goes to 10,000msl, no problem, climb as high as you like to 17,999.

You cannont fly over the top of Class B or Class C below 10,000 MSL. TFR the Class C tops out at 5,000, you cannot fly between 5,000 and 10,000 without equipment. Above 10,000 to 17,999 is fair game.

BillT

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 10:19:59 PM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:

If you want a fully functional ADS-B IN / OUT system for under $1,000 you'll probably have to wait until this fall. These systems are going to use iPAD or iPHONE apps to provide the user interface. (I'm not counting the cost of iPhone / iPAD in the price of the system, as most people have these devices anyway).

If I'm flying a glider and I want to invest in avionics for anti-collision I wouldn't invest in anything that doesn't sent/receive Flarm protocol if I'm worried about gliders since the odds a glider is going to have anything other than Flarm is low. If I'm worried about fast jets I wouldn't invest in anything that doesn't light up both TCAS and SSR because they are faster it is much better for them to see me. That requires a transponder. Those considerations make anything UAT-only mostly useless as it depends on ADS-R to get even half of the job done. For GA I remain skeptical that UAT will outsell 1090ES, even in GA.

9B

On Thursday, May 7, 2015 at 12:32:11 AM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 10:19:59 PM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:

If you want a fully functional ADS-B IN / OUT system for under $1,000 you'll probably have to wait until this fall. These systems are going to use iPAD or iPHONE apps to provide the user interface. (I'm not counting the cost of iPhone / iPAD in the price of the system, as most people have these devices anyway).

If I'm flying a glider and I want to invest in avionics for anti-collision I wouldn't invest in anything that doesn't sent/receive Flarm protocol if I'm worried about gliders since the odds a glider is going to have anything other than Flarm is low. If I'm worried about fast jets I wouldn't invest in anything that doesn't light up both TCAS and SSR because they are faster it is much better for them to see me. That requires a transponder. Those considerations make anything UAT-only mostly useless as it depends on ADS-R to get even half of the job done. For GA I remain skeptical that UAT will outsell 1090ES, even in GA.

9B

The question is, do you want to end up with an avionics package that doesn't see UAT ADS-B OUT equipped traffic? It's hard to predict how much of the GA or UAV fleet will go down that road, but it could be a pretty significant percentage if there is a significant price difference between UAT and 1090ES ADS-B OUT solutions.

That's not to say that FLARM isn't a good solution for glider pilots that are flying in competitions. FLARM is specifically designed for collision avoidance for aircraft that are flying at close quarters. ADS-B is designed to give people a heads up so they can stay far away from any conflicting traffic before it becomes a threat. It's really unfortunate that the PowerFLARM folks only solved part of the problem rather than come up with a comprehensive solution that takes into account the UAT / 1090ES architecture of the US ADS-B system.

In Europe I don't think this is even a discussion. The risk to gliders is nearly all glider to glider. Some GA owners are installing PF also.

On Thursday, May 7, 2015 at 1:08:27 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:

The question is, do you want to end up with an avionics package that doesn't see UAT ADS-B OUT equipped traffic? It's hard to predict how much of the GA or UAV fleet will go down that road, but it could be a pretty significant percentage if there is a significant price difference between UAT and 1090ES ADS-B OUT solutions.

The problem is, in order to see ALL ADS-B traffic, you HAVE to have ADS-B out. So to get reliable info, you have to have, at a minimum, about $1500 for a Skyguard UAT transceiver and and $500 for an iFly display to show the data. Or an iPhone 6+, same price.

And how many gliders are going to do that? Most racers won't - they'll stick to PF for the collision warning advantage (and leeching benefits). Out west, they will most likely go with 1090ES out to trigger jet TCAS, and PF to see other gliders.

Just getting an ADS-B receiver is fine for weather and NOTAMS, but a really flawed solution for traffic - much worse than PF, for all the reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum in this thread.


That's not to say that FLARM isn't a good solution for glider pilots that are flying in competitions. FLARM is specifically designed for collision avoidance for aircraft that are flying at close quarters. ADS-B is designed to give people a heads up so they can stay far away from any conflicting traffic before it becomes a threat. It's really unfortunate that the PowerFLARM folks only solved part of the problem rather than come up with a comprehensive solution that takes into account the UAT / 1090ES architecture of the US ADS-B system.

Mike, has it occurred to you that since the US is the only country to use UAT, there isn't a big enough market for it at present? But in Europe, the PF makes total sense, since it will display ALL ADS-B (1090ES) traffic AND gliders?

Kirk
66

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 11:11:33 PM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:
There was is Nothing wrong with the language, it is the same as for the transponder requirement.
Within the 30nm arc defining the mode c veil, if the ceiling of the associated class b is 9000msl, you cannot climb above 9000 without the proper equipment.
If the class b goes to 10,000msl, no problem, climb as high as you like to 17,999.

You cannont fly over the top of Class B or Class C below 10,000 MSL. TFR the Class C tops out at 5,000, you cannot fly between 5,000 and 10,000 without equipment. Above 10,000 to 17,999 is fair game.

BillT

Bill,

They might have wanted it to be the same as the transponder, but they used different language. The only way I can parse the FAR is that there is no exemption above 10,000 MSL.

Todd
3S

On Thursday, May 7, 2015 at 7:40:59 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
The problem is, in order to see ALL ADS-B traffic, you HAVE to have ADS-B out. So to get reliable info, you have to have, at a minimum, about $1500 for a Skyguard UAT transceiver and and $500 for an iFly display to show the data. Or an iPhone 6+, same price.

Uh no, to see all ADS-B traffic you just need to have receivers for both UAT and 1090ES, both transmit continuously whether or not there is other ADS-B traffic in the area. It is ADS-R from ground stations that may not be transmitted if there are no detected ADS-B out targets in the area.

At 07:21 07 May 2015, waremark wrote:
In Europe I don't think this is even a discussion. The risk to gliders is
nearly all glider to glider. Some GA owners are installing PF also.

Not just GA! The Vulcan bomber is installing PF this spring and the RAF
BBMF
have installed it in all their aircraft.

On Thursday, May 7, 2015 at 12:20:41 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Uh no, to see all ADS-B traffic you just need to have receivers for both UAT and 1090ES, both transmit continuously whether or not there is other ADS-B traffic in the area. It is ADS-R from ground stations that may not be transmitted if there are no detected ADS-B out targets in the area.

Are you sure? As I understand it, unless you transmit ADS-B out, you will not get all the UAT ADS-B out traffic. You will only see them when a UAT ADS-B out is getting traffic info for all the traffic near him. And you have to be in range of a ground station.

Agree that with a 1090ES receiver (such as a PF), you will see all 1090ES traffic nearby - but not UAT-only ADS-B traffic.

Kirk
66

On Thursday, May 7, 2015 at 2:14:58 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
Are you sure? As I understand it, unless you transmit ADS-B out, you will not get all the UAT ADS-B out traffic. You will only see them when a UAT ADS-B out is getting traffic info for all the traffic near him. And you have to be in range of a ground station.

1090ES and UAT ADS-B out devices continuously transmit position and velocity vector once or twice per second (I'm hazy on which it is). A ground station may suppress transmission of TIS-B and ADS-R, if there is no ADS-B target of the corresponding type in the coverage area.

Marc