Unclear Clearance

8,000 hours experience
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
k.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:B%wef.3438$QW2.1494@dukeread08...
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| You were clear for the approach because you were the
only
| IFR in the area and the minimum altitude for the area
was
| 4,000 until you reached a part of the published
approach.
| You owned all altitudes from 7,000 feet on down, until
you
| reported 'out" of an altitude.
|
|
| What do you base that on?
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|

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:03:35 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
ATC gave you a new altitude to "maintain" until established. That is your
altitude assignment. In my part of the world, it is usually preceded by a
"climb" or "descend" but I don't know if that is required.

I'm reasonably sure that the "descend" is a required part of the
phrasology. But, the real point is that whether saying "descend" is
required or not, controllers are human, as are pilots. On both sides of
the mike, minor mistakes are made all the time. The key to making the
whole system work is to ask for clarification whenever you're not sure you
understood what the other person said or meant.

As both of us pointed out, asking ATC was the proper procedure.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:JHxef.3469$QW2.1475@dukeread08...

8,000 hours experience


A misconception heavily reinforced.

Clear for approach to an uncontrolled airport, only issued
when there is no other IFR [conflicting] traffic in the
system.
No instructions to "descend and maintain" means you can
remain at your altitude after the IFR approach clearance is
issued, the maintain 4,000 is required by FAA procedure
since the airline 727 descended to IAP and hit a mountain
near DC about 30 years ago.
A Cruise clearance allows you to fly any legal and safe
altitude at pilots discretion, climbing back to altitude if
desired, as long as the pilot has not reported leaving the
altitude.
A clearance limit to the airport implies "clear for the
approach at arrival" but if comm. has not been lost, you
should get a specific clearance. If cleared to a fix, you
can expect to make an approach at ETA or EAC as cleared.
Unless cleared for a particular approach, the pilot may
select any published approach or even a contact approach,
but it is recommended the pilot advise ATC of which approach
will be flown.
It is important at non-towered airports for the PIC under
IFR to cancel IFR when on the ground or in good VFR, when
landing is assured so the next aircraft can be cleared for
take-off or landing. Most airports with IFR approaches will
have some freq. that can reach ATC while on the ground, but
you can have another airplane relay.
The goal is to not hit other airplanes or the terrain, in
general all ATC cares about is other airplanes.




"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:JHxef.3469$QW2.1475@dukeread08...
|
| 8,000 hours experience
|
|
| A misconception heavily reinforced.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:XWyef.3487$QW2.1662@dukeread08...

No instructions to "descend and maintain" means you can
remain at your altitude after the IFR approach clearance is
issued, the maintain 4,000 is required by FAA procedure
since the airline 727 descended to IAP and hit a mountain
near DC about 30 years ago.


The aircraft was instructed to "maintain 4000".



A Cruise clearance allows you to fly any legal and safe
altitude at pilots discretion, climbing back to altitude if
desired, as long as the pilot has not reported leaving the
altitude.


A cruise clearance was not issued.



A clearance limit to the airport implies "clear for the
approach at arrival" but if comm. has not been lost, you
should get a specific clearance.


An airport clearance limit does not imply an approach clearance.

Mitty wrote:
OK, just to distract you guys from "IFR with a VFR GPS" ---

Flying into Grand Marais MN last week (KCKC) I was out maybe 30 miles at
7000 and got "Cleared for the approach, maintain 4000 until established.
Contact advisory ... "

The reason for the early clearance was, I think, that I was at the edge
of Center's radar and comm coverage. (Grand Marais is near the Canadian
border on the north shore of Lake Superior. There was nobody around.)

But I really didn't want to fly that last 30 miles at 4000 as there were
clouds about there and maybe a little ice. I wanted to stay at 7. So I
queried: "Center, that 4000 was pilot's discretion, right?" and got a
"Right."

Did I need to ask? Should I have assumed pilot's discretion? She did
not tell me to descend, just gave me the altitude limit.
In a situation like that, I sometimes get a "Cruise 4000" clearance.
That is usually the last I hear from them, cancel on the phone.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

It was bad phraseology, and possibly a bad clearance. It's not clear if the
controller meant for the descent to be discretionary or not.

What was unclear about it? I'd never infer discretionary descent unless it was
explicitly stated by the controller. I'd say the clearance unambiguously
required vacating 7000 (before amendment).

Dave

If she had said, "maintain at or above 4000 until
established", then you could have stayed at 7000 as long as you wanted.

Could he climb above 7000 with such a clearance?

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
If she had said, "maintain at or above 4000 until established", then
you could have stayed at 7000 as long as you wanted.


Could he climb above 7000 with such a clearance?

No.

Have you considered making a phone call to the controlling facility and
getting there feedback on this clearance and any expectations they
might have had?

I'm a relatively new IFR pilot and don't get as much practice as I
would like. It's a frustrating feeling, to have been given a
clearance, and try decipher all that you can and cannot do because the
clearance was a little vague. You definitely did the right thing,
asking for clarification.

The part I'm a little unclear on is: "Center, that 4000 was pilot's
discretion, right?" ...... "Right."

How is that different from a cruise clearance? Is it because you are
cleared to decend to 4000 at your discretion, but once you leave the
altitude you can't go back, unless cleared to climb again?

These groups are great for getting clarification on things we encounter
in the air, but they aren't of much use when you are at 7000 feet and
concerned about picking up a little ice... ;-)

Best Regards,
Todd