How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

"Land out miles away, what follows, not so much fantastic."

Actually, land outs can be an entirely different adventure! You get to
visit a different airport or field, meet new people, share the
excitement of flying without an engine, etc. You get to have a meal
some place where you might never have gone before. Think of all the
stories you'll have to tell your friends upon your return.

You could also spend the night sleeping in the glider or in a motel in
Hawthorne, NV like someone I know did a few days ago... :-D

On 8/28/2015 1:16 AM, Roger Hurley wrote:
Cross-country soaring is a thrill, and a challenge. N97MT is right enough,
there is almost always somewhere 'acceptable' to land out and we should (at
some point) show novice pilots how to do that so they don't fear it.

But this misses the elephant in the room. Today its true we are a cash
rich and time poor society. I think most of us just want to go fly and
then go home - we really do not want to land out. Take an afternoon off
work, go fly cross-country for 3 or 4 hours, come home, fantastic. Land
out miles away, what follows, not so much fantastic.

With the thread subject in mind.....To make cross-country soaring more
attractive and accessible, to encourage more to just go fly more, and
cross-country, the gamechanger is engines.

Roger H


At 03:02 28 August 2015, N97MT wrote:
Some of the replies here are truly uninspiring contrary to the title of
thi=
s thread.

You are always within gliding distance of some landing spot. There is a
tru=
e psychological barrier preventing new students from understanding this
con=
cept unless you have helped them to overcome this. They think that the
home=
airport is the ONLY landing spot. Yes, some will do cross-country once
and=
then never again. That's OK. At least they will have the experience to
pro=
perly size up real landing spots along the way.

But many more will be grateful to you in the realization that the anxiety
t=
o never leave home base was all in their head. This is where real
inspirati=
on is born.

If you don't do this with them in practice, you are doing your students a
t=
remendous disservice. Unfamiliarity is dangerous, and can lead to
disaster.=
There is a reason why student airplane pilots are taught to practice
instr=
ument flying for emergencies - because they will eventually encounter VFR
f=
lying into IMC. It will save their life.

The same applies to practice cross-country soaring.

At the very least, the glider instructor should fly with the student to
an
=
unfamiliar airport and use that as an out landing spot. Or better yet,
pick=
out three unfamiliar airports and do it. Teach them everything they need
t=
o do to size up the landing as if it were off-airport, like it is
described=
in the Glider Flying Handbook.

Doing your first out landing alone (even close to your airport) after
getti=
ng your Private ticket is exactly the wrong time to be experiencing it
for
=
the first time.



--
Dan Marotta

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 11:20:23 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Land out miles away, what follows, not so much fantastic."



Actually, land outs can be an entirely different adventure!* You get
to visit a different airport or field, meet new people, share the
excitement of flying without an engine, etc.* You get to have a meal
some place where you might never have gone before.* Think of all the
stories you'll have to tell your friends upon your return.



You could also spend the night sleeping in the glider or in a motel
in Hawthorne, NV like someone I know did a few days ago...* :-D




On 8/28/2015 1:16 AM, Roger Hurley
wrote:



Cross-country soaring is a thrill, and a challenge. N97MT is right enough,
there is almost always somewhere 'acceptable' to land out and we should (at
some point) show novice pilots how to do that so they don't fear it.

But this misses the elephant in the room. Today its true we are a cash
rich and time poor society. I think most of us just want to go fly and
then go home - we really do not want to land out. Take an afternoon off
work, go fly cross-country for 3 or 4 hours, come home, fantastic. Land
out miles away, what follows, not so much fantastic.

With the thread subject in mind.....To make cross-country soaring more
attractive and accessible, to encourage more to just go fly more, and
cross-country, the gamechanger is engines.

Roger H


At 03:02 28 August 2015, N97MT wrote:


Some of the replies here are truly uninspiring contrary to the title of
thi=
s thread.

You are always within gliding distance of some landing spot. There is a
tru=
e psychological barrier preventing new students from understanding this
con=
cept unless you have helped them to overcome this. They think that the
home=
airport is the ONLY landing spot. Yes, some will do cross-country once
and=
then never again. That's OK. At least they will have the experience to
pro=
perly size up real landing spots along the way.

But many more will be grateful to you in the realization that the anxiety
t=
o never leave home base was all in their head. This is where real
inspirati=
on is born.

If you don't do this with them in practice, you are doing your students a
t=
remendous disservice. Unfamiliarity is dangerous, and can lead to
disaster.=
There is a reason why student airplane pilots are taught to practice
instr=
ument flying for emergencies - because they will eventually encounter VFR
f=
lying into IMC. It will save their life.

The same applies to practice cross-country soaring.

At the very least, the glider instructor should fly with the student to


an


=
unfamiliar airport and use that as an out landing spot. Or better yet,
pick=
out three unfamiliar airports and do it. Teach them everything they need
t=
o do to size up the landing as if it were off-airport, like it is
described=
in the Glider Flying Handbook.

Doing your first out landing alone (even close to your airport) after
getti=
ng your Private ticket is exactly the wrong time to be experiencing it


for


=
the first time.









--

Dan Marotta

Thanks Dan, so true. I never had a bad experience on a landout, no angry farmer, no unhelpful police. Many good memories of meeting interesting people out in the country who were thrilled to have me as their guest.
Covington VA, ca. 1995, the land owner called the local newspaper, they sent a reporter who expertly interviewed me and took pictures. The land owner takes me aside and exclaims: trust me Herb, WE are going to make the front page tomorrow. He was right and he did send me the article and picture. Wouldn't want to miss that kind of experience.
Next time I'll tell you the story of the farmer's wife who brought us (me and Mike???, flies a Libelle, works at Scaled Composites) a 5 course dinner into the meadow when we were still waiting for our crews at 9 PM in the mountains of Southern Idaho.
Herb

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 10:20:03 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 11:20:23 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Land out miles away, what follows, not so much fantastic."

Actually, land outs can be an entirely different adventure!

I believe that the 'good old days' of soaring really did happen and that they still do at some popular locations, but the 'little woman' is no longer eager to crew, and there may only be one or two tired (and older) pilots on the ground late in the day.

I'm confident that my club could muster a retrieve, but the XC participation rates have fallen below the threshold that makes land outs routine.

OLC, Badge and Wave camps are another story because there are a large number of pilots present (like in the old days), they are on vacation from their normal evening activities and commitments, and they're looking for a late afternoon/evening adventure. I'm willing (even eager) to help with a retrieve, but the only one that I've ever done was at a wave camp.

So for the foreseeable future, I'll be flying with a zero MacReady. Maybe relocate to a more popular XC location. Maybe FES someday.

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 10:14:28 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

So for the foreseeable future, I'll be flying with a zero MacReady. Maybe relocate to a more popular XC location. Maybe FES someday.

Zero Macready? Really? May I suggest you read up a little more on the theory and practice of Macready settings. Reichman is good, also John Cochrane's articles at http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...ring/index.htm

XC is more a matter of state of mind than of the weather. I've flown 500+ k XCs out west that required almost no skill and were borderline boring, and 100k XCs in the midwest that required all the skill I could summon to complete without ending up in a field. Guess which were more fun...

Kirk
66

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 11:51:06 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:

Zero Macready? Really? May I suggest you read up a little more on the theory and practice of Macready settings. Reichman is good, also John Cochrane's articles at http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...ring/index.htm

I understand that Zero Macready is totally wimpy, not flying XC, but it gives me a good chance of not landing out, and that is my priority. Having lots of fun though.

"Land out miles away, what follows, not so much fantastic."

Actually, land outs can be an entirely different adventure!

I believe that the 'good old days' of soaring really did happen and that
they still do at some popular locations...

Ah, the Good Old Days! No matter what activity (or even industry) we're
talking about, we all hear of 'em...and if we stick with something long
enough, maybe we'll even remember 'em ourselves. Or maybe...

Back when I'd heard tales of soaring's good old days from others, but before
I'd been in it long enough to have my own such perspective, I could (and did)
look around the club to which I'd recently moved, and saw "a
convenience-based-club" of mostly flagpole sitters, knew of a few weirdos
(e.g. myself) with dreams of XC, and even had a few geezer members (they were
older than I then was) pointed out to me in terms of awe as having actually
done some.

Convinced it was possible, knowing really very few other club members I felt I
knew well enough to pre-ask to crew, hoping I had enough savvy to not land out
"foolishly" - my goal was to not do it unless it was "a real retrieve" and not
just across a few fences - I kept my mouth shut and routinely did O&Rs as far
I thought each day would permit. By the time I needed retrieve help (on the
way back, and "just across a few fences" [sigh]), the geezer guy who came and
got me had surpassed my feeble efforts by self-retrieving many times, using
thumb and Trailways/Greyhound, from as far as 200 road miles away, sometimes
over multiple days. He was married. His wife didn't soar (actually, I met her
only at their house many years later; by then they were grandparents). Bob
(began soaring several years later than I) remains one of my many soaring
heroes...

Ah the Good Old Days. In soaring, they're *always* here!!!

Bob - never a TRULY bad landout experience (chortle!), mine or others - W.

I understand that Zero Macready is totally wimpy, not flying XC, but it gives me a good chance of not landing out, and that is my priority. Having lots of fun though.



If you "don't" want to land out you need to "increase" your macready setting, you
have it backwards.

A higher macready setting increases the chances that you will make your chosen field even if you fly through more sink than expected.

I usually just leave mine set on 3 all the time.

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 11:12:20 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

I understand that Zero Macready is totally wimpy, not flying XC, but it gives me a good chance of not landing out, and that is my priority. Having lots of fun though.

Nothing to do with being wimpy, it's just not efficient - and flying gliders is all about being efficient!

There are a few situations where MC 0 (or basically L/D max speed) is appropriate; and they usually occur just prior to a landout: trying to stretch a glide late in the day when all the lift has stopped, or down low scratching around for a thermal (with your landout field already picked) - but if you have any altitude to play with you should be flying the MC for the lift you expect to find.

Of course, the MC you use needs to be adjusted with your expectation and altitude - up high, MC 3 or 4 is common, down low, MC 2 or even 1 (if really desperate on a weak day). Again, the classic soaring texts explain all this in detail.

Even flying locally you should be using the correct XC techniques if you expect to master the art.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Zero MC will get you landing out quicker... (Unless you always fly with
a tail wind and, in fact, you fly more with a head wind).

On 8/29/2015 9:14 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 10:20:03 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 11:20:23 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Land out miles away, what follows, not so much fantastic."

Actually, land outs can be an entirely different adventure!
I believe that the 'good old days' of soaring really did happen and that they still do at some popular locations, but the 'little woman' is no longer eager to crew, and there may only be one or two tired (and older) pilots on the ground late in the day.

I'm confident that my club could muster a retrieve, but the XC participation rates have fallen below the threshold that makes land outs routine.

OLC, Badge and Wave camps are another story because there are a large number of pilots present (like in the old days), they are on vacation from their normal evening activities and commitments, and they're looking for a late afternoon/evening adventure. I'm willing (even eager) to help with a retrieve, but the only one that I've ever done was at a wave camp.

So for the foreseeable future, I'll be flying with a zero MacReady. Maybe relocate to a more popular XC location. Maybe FES someday.

--
Dan Marotta

Sorry if this has already been covered as I am late to this party. How about having more xc camps with structured learning and someone to follow around a course. I know when I started to fly xc I was frustrated by the lack of any structured learning. I asked several xc pilots where I was flying if they could take me around a course and teach me a few things, every one said I have to keep up with them. I searched away from my glider port to find instructors who would take me xc. I flew a Grob 109 on a simulated course then found an instructor in the Sierras who took me on a long flight in a Janus. Then I started out on my own usually not getting more than 50 to 75 miles away finally I started doing the long flights. I had to seek out training from three different glider operations to get all the training and skill I thought I needed to be safe and competent to fly xc far from home base. Believe it or not Bill Bartel actually took several days off work to show me around the flying in Arizona. I had been flying xc for about a year or two already, still so much to learn. I still remember Bill opening his airbrakes to come back down to my height in the thermal to thermal up again with me.

We have many sanctioned contests and much emphasis on this news group and in Soaring Magazine is about racing. In addition to having a race committee how about having a pilot development committee. Hold multiple sanctioned youth, women, family day and xc flying meets with activities for all and a training syllabus. Just a thought