The Wright Stuff and The Wright Experience

On Wed, 1 Oct 2003 21:41:47 -0400, (Peter Stickney)
wrote:


Well, there's canvas and then there's canvas. The first two dictionary
entries that pop up for me read as follows:

2) a) A coarse cloth so woven as to form regular meshes for working
with the needle, as in tapestry, or worsted work.

I needlepoint (do canvas work) and it's certainly not what you'd use
to cover a wing. The holes are bigger than the warp and weft threads.

Canvas, as in the fabric used in sails, is tabby weave, like duck. It
can be made from cotton, hemp, linen, ramie, or other fibers. The
weight and the closeness of the weave varies.

So, at a glance, Irish Linen could, in fact, be considered a type of
canvas, or, perhaps a cotton twill. IIRC, the Wrights used a Sateen,
which is a cotton with a treated surface.

Nope. Sateen is a weave, just like twill. It's not treated and it's
not necessarily cotton. Rather, it has floating threads on the
surface, just like satin. In fact, the difference between sateen and
satin is whether it's the warp threads or the woof threads that float.

Anyway, sateen can be made from any fiber, although some of them
aren't as practical as others. So can twill and satin, for that
matter.

Mary
--
Mary Shafer
"There are only two types of aircraft--fighters and targets"
Major Doyle "Wahoo" Nicholson, USMC

In article ,
(John Mazor) wrote:

Steve Hix simpered:

Too technical for you, John?

In article ,
(Peter Stickney) wrote:

Well, there's canvas and then there's canvas. The first two dictionary
entries that pop up for me read as follows:
1) A strong cloth made of hemp, flax, or cotton; - used for tents,
sails, etc.
2) a) A coarse cloth so woven as to form regular meshes for working
with the needle, as in tapestry, or worsted work.
b) A piece of strong cloth of which the surface has been prepared
to receive painting, commonly painting in oil.

So, at a glance, Irish Linen could, in fact, be considered a type of
canvas, or, perhaps a cotton twill.

Cotten yes, twill oh no. Canvas is a plainweave fabric, strictly
alternating over and under of warp (lengthwise) and weft (across). Twill
weaves involve the warp/weft pattern varying in particular ways. Silly.

Note that the "Silly" above was added by John Mazor, for whatever
reason helps him sleep better at night.

A 2/2 twill has the warp skip over twice, then under, while the weft
also skips over then under. Mmmm. Denim is a usually this type of twill,
and
is the reason you see the diagonal pattern on the surface of the cloth.
(Blue jeans "denim" usually uses dyed warp, in blue, with undyed weft. It
got its name because it was first commercially woven in Nimes, so fabric
"de Nimes" became "denim". Or so the story goes.) Lovely. Don't you think?
Hmmm?

As was the "Lovely...Hmmm?" segment.

Other twills might be 3/3 or 3/2 or other patterns.

IIRC, the Wrights used a Sateen, which is a cotton with a treated surface.

Sateen can be cotton or linen, or sometimes rayon. It's tightly-woven tight
clenched young warp-emphasis (not a "balanced weave - ooooohhh") fabric
intended to look like satin. simper involutary twitch of
all-too-expressive wrist

Etc. etc. etc. Mazor seems to be getting quite worked up, for some
reason.

The weave makes it hold its shape well wink,
rather than being stretchy, like a knit or crocheted fabric. A perle cotton,
treated by strong alkaline (IIRC) is shiny, and would look very like satin.

Sorry, I got a little wound up. moue

And the "moue".

(I'd be handweaving now, but things are in disarray at the house, and
the looms aren't accessible until quite a bit of jun...um...stuff gets
reorganized after the carpet replacement.)

Shouldn't you be out there sodomizing young boys, Bishop?

John Mazor

No, John. Probably better if you didn't project your own problems on
others. (And who the hell is "Bishop"?)

I got interested in weaving through historical reenactments, where I was
involved in competitive target shooting.

And why in the world should you care, one way or the other. If you're
not interested in some hobby, too bad. Most people probably aren't
interested in whatever yours might be. So what?

If Rosie Grier could take up needlepoint, I don't see any problem with
handweaving as a hobby. Not that I'd care in any case.

Oh, almost forgot: FOAD, Mazor.

"Steve Hix" wrote in message
...

No, John. Probably better if you didn't project your own problems on
others. (And who the hell is "Bishop"?)

I got interested in weaving through historical reenactments, where I
was
involved in competitive target shooting.

And why in the world should you care, one way or the other. If you're
not interested in some hobby, too bad. Most people probably aren't
interested in whatever yours might be. So what?

If Rosie Grier could take up needlepoint, I don't see any problem with
handweaving as a hobby. Not that I'd care in any case.

The idiosyncratic Montréal Canadiens goaltender, Jacques Plante, was
famous for knitting, even in the dressing room. Why shouldn't lesser
mortals like ourselves take up such crafts?
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Mary Shafer wrote:
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003 21:41:47 -0400, (Peter Stickney)
wrote:

Well, there's canvas and then there's canvas. The first two dictionary
entries that pop up for me read as follows:

2) a) A coarse cloth so woven as to form regular meshes for working
with the needle, as in tapestry, or worsted work.

I needlepoint (do canvas work) and it's certainly not what you'd use
to cover a wing. The holes are bigger than the warp and weft threads.

Canvas, as in the fabric used in sails, is tabby weave, like duck. It
can be made from cotton, hemp, linen, ramie, or other fibers. The
weight and the closeness of the weave varies.

So, at a glance, Irish Linen could, in fact, be considered a type of
canvas, or, perhaps a cotton twill. IIRC, the Wrights used a Sateen,
which is a cotton with a treated surface.

Nope. Sateen is a weave, just like twill. It's not treated and it's
not necessarily cotton. Rather, it has floating threads on the
surface, just like satin. In fact, the difference between sateen and
satin is whether it's the warp threads or the woof threads that float.

Anyway, sateen can be made from any fiber, although some of them
aren't as practical as others. So can twill and satin, for that
matter.

I had a vague memory that the 1903 Flyer was covered with cotton muslin.
So I googled around and discovered that while the 1900-1902 gliders were
indeed covered in "French sateen", the 1903 Flyer was covered in "Pride
of the West" brand muslin, a very fine weave commonly used for
petticoats.

Once they went into series production, they used waterproofed cotton
cloth (rubberized) for the wing coverings.

-Marc

--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

In article ,
(Marc Reeve) writes:
Mary Shafer wrote:
So, at a glance, Irish Linen could, in fact, be considered a type of
canvas, or, perhaps a cotton twill. IIRC, the Wrights used a Sateen,
which is a cotton with a treated surface.

Nope. Sateen is a weave, just like twill. It's not treated and it's
not necessarily cotton. Rather, it has floating threads on the
surface, just like satin. In fact, the difference between sateen and
satin is whether it's the warp threads or the woof threads that float.

Anyway, sateen can be made from any fiber, although some of them
aren't as practical as others. So can twill and satin, for that
matter.

I had a vague memory that the 1903 Flyer was covered with cotton muslin.
So I googled around and discovered that while the 1900-1902 gliders were
indeed covered in "French sateen", the 1903 Flyer was covered in "Pride
of the West" brand muslin, a very fine weave commonly used for
petticoats.

Once they went into series production, they used waterproofed cotton
cloth (rubberized) for the wing coverings.

I'd like to express my belated thanks to Steve, Mary, adn Marc for teh
information. I'd like to say that it's more than I ever wanted to
know about early aircraft covering materiels, bit I found that there
was more to it than I thought. It was darned interesting, actually.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster