Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?

"ArtKramr" wrote

That is what I thought. But he never made it to the left seat.

Maybe something else, probably something the squadron or wing
commander knew that no one else did (whole person concept).

Since the 80's they wouldn't waste time on anyone who wasn't
going to be an Aircraft Commander one day. They don't have
professional co-pilots :-)

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "S. Sampson"
Date: 2/8/04 5:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: MhBVb.16366$Q_4.12788@okepread03

"ArtKramr" wrote

That is what I thought. But he never made it to the left seat.

Maybe something else, probably something the squadron or wing
commander knew that no one else did (whole person concept).

Since the 80's they wouldn't waste time on anyone who wasn't
going to be an Aircraft Commander one day. They don't have
professional co-pilots :-)



This was in WW II. Everything that could fly had to fly. Pilots and crews were
needed. Every seat had to be filled with aircrew.The future had to take care
if itself.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 09 Feb 2004 01:44:22 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "S. Sampson"

Since the 80's they wouldn't waste time on anyone who wasn't
going to be an Aircraft Commander one day. They don't have
professional co-pilots :-)

This was in WW II. Everything that could fly had to fly. Pilots and crews were
needed. Every seat had to be filled with aircrew.The future had to take care
if itself.

Arthur Kramer

Been thinking about this situation since the question was first
posted. Here's what I think might be a reason. Art can fill the blanks
if he has additional info.

The original stated the guy was a private pilot who went to Canada and
then wound up in the RAF flying Hurricanes. It didn't indicate if he
had gone through a formal military pilot training course in Canada or
England. Certainly the needs of the service in those hectic Battle of
Britain days might have gotten the guy a seat in a military airplane,
but when the American ex-pats got transferred into the USAAC, the
records might have shown no military aviation rating, merely a FAA
certificate.

Since the guy had some experience, he could fill a space on the
schedule, but without a rating he couldn't be advanced to
pilot-in-command duties. Plausible explanation??



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 2/9/04 7:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 09 Feb 2004 01:44:22 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "S. Sampson"

Since the 80's they wouldn't waste time on anyone who wasn't
going to be an Aircraft Commander one day. They don't have
professional co-pilots :-)

This was in WW II. Everything that could fly had to fly. Pilots and crews
were
needed. Every seat had to be filled with aircrew.The future had to take
care
if itself.

Arthur Kramer

Been thinking about this situation since the question was first
posted. Here's what I think might be a reason. Art can fill the blanks
if he has additional info.

The original stated the guy was a private pilot who went to Canada and
then wound up in the RAF flying Hurricanes. It didn't indicate if he
had gone through a formal military pilot training course in Canada or
England. Certainly the needs of the service in those hectic Battle of
Britain days might have gotten the guy a seat in a military airplane,
but when the American ex-pats got transferred into the USAAC, the
records might have shown no military aviation rating, merely a FAA
certificate.

Since the guy had some experience, he could fill a space on the
schedule, but without a rating he couldn't be advanced to
pilot-in-command duties. Plausible explanation??



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Yes. I think that is very plausable. I even know of one case where an American
flew with the RAF and when transferred to the USAAC was refused flying status
other than a gunner spot. But he must have failed a test check flight. Can't
think of any other reason. He didn't survive the war and went down on one of
our many raids to the Cologne marshalling yards hit by ground fire,



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 08:12:03 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Been thinking about this situation since the question was first
posted. Here's what I think might be a reason. Art can fill the blanks
if he has additional info.

The original stated the guy was a private pilot who went to Canada and
then wound up in the RAF flying Hurricanes. It didn't indicate if he
had gone through a formal military pilot training course in Canada or
England.

Anybody who flew RAF aircraft underwent an RAF training course. Even
the first Eagle squadron volunteers did so in the winter of 1940.
Transfer into the USAAF from the RAF was voluntary for American
pilots, and some didn't want to do it, for various reasons (in one
case a sense of obligation to the RAF who had paid for his training
and posted him to a combat unit where the pre-war USAAC had rejected
him as a pilot, another because he throught he'd fail a more stringent
USAAF medical examination). However, most did, for various reasons -
the most common given being for the higher pay.

Since the guy had some experience, he could fill a space on the
schedule, but without a rating he couldn't be advanced to
pilot-in-command duties. Plausible explanation??

I suspect the explanation lies somewhere along those lines of
differing USAAF institutional training and type-command requirements.
It was rare but not unheard of for a single-engined pilot to convert
to multi-engined aircraft.

Gavin Bailey

"Presidente Alcazar"
Anybody who flew RAF aircraft underwent an RAF training course. Even
the first Eagle squadron volunteers did so in the winter of 1940.
Transfer into the USAAF from the RAF was voluntary for American
pilots, and some didn't want to do it, for various reasons (in one
case a sense of obligation to the RAF who had paid for his training
and posted him to a combat unit where the pre-war USAAC had rejected
him as a pilot, another because he throught he'd fail a more stringent
USAAF medical examination). However, most did, for various reasons -
the most common given being for the higher pay.

I expect all newly recruited pilots/aircrew would take training whether
they enlisted by coming up to Canada or going directly to Britain regardless
if they were trained. They would need some sort of conversion training.
In Canada this was done by the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan.
Canada was considered the training airdrome for the British Commonwealth.
They trained aircrews at many stations spread across Canada. Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners, Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners, Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you were
needed.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners,
Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you
were
needed.

Yep, for the most part (though I do know one WWII vet who, upon finding out
his entire aviation cadet class was being cancelled and the newly enlisted
members being reassigned to other duties, flatly refused to train as a radio
operator--and got his assignment to gunnery school that he was willing to
take). Kind of strange to hear you admit that, though--wasn't that long ago
you were claiming that all of those who wanted to engage in direct combat
operations could do so, regardless of what the "needs of the service" were.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

It may be attributable to the AC brass. He didn't come up
through the ranks.

At the beginning of WWII the senior officer corps in the US
military were filed with spit and polish desk generals and
admirals who were more interested in protocol and procedure
than results!

Look at what happened to the Flying Tigers after Pearl
Harbor.

--
Chas. (Drop spamski to E-mail
me)

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
I haven't thought about John O'Brian in years. But a
comment made on this NG
reminded me of him. He was a bit older than the rest of
us. He had a civilian
pilots license when the war started in Europe. He went to
Canada and ended up
flying Hurricanes in the MTO. When the US entered the war
he was, like all
Americans, transferred to the USAAC. But he ended up as
a copilot with the
344th Bomb Group flying B-26 Marauders..I always wondered
why, with his
experience, he didn't become a left seater. Any ideas?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Ed Majden" wrote in message
news:k%wVb.441193$ts4.223591@pd7tw3no...


Did all USAAC bombers have a co-pilot? Didn't Lancs and other
RAF/RCAF
bombers only fly with one pilot? Seemed kind of risky to me, but I guess
it
worked risking one less aircrew member during a mission. My cousins
husband, now deceased, flew as a Nav. He said that nearly on each mission
someone was shot up. He made it through the war without a scratch!
Ed



IRC it was only the Lancaster and Halifax that used just one pilot. The RAF
looked at aircraft losses and came to the conclusion that unlike
the USAAF aircraft typically came back with all their crew or didnt
return at all.

The US daylight bombers required a co-pilot for the physically and
mentally fatiquing task of close formation flying upon which their
defensive boxes were based. Lancasters just bumbelled along in bomber
streams at night presumably on auto-pilot much of the way.



.
Indeed most crews never even knew they were under attack until
they were hit.

Makes me wonder why they bothered with the fitting of guns at all. An
unarmed Lanc might be able to outpace a radar equiped Me 110.


The flight engineer was usually given some flight training
but basically just enough to hold the aircraft level while the crew bailed
out.

Keith