Can I bill my airplane travel expenses to a client?

First - thanks all for the replies.

I figure it cost me about $130 an hour to fly my '79 TR-182, including
direct and indirect costs. My usual trip to see my client in Phoenix takes
about 8 hours round trip, or $1,040. I can fly economy commercial, and park
my car for about $500. While I'd love to charge my client the difference, I
really can't justify it. On the other hand, I'll happily pay the incremental
$540 out of pocket and have my own first class seat...


Michael



"Tom S." wrote in message
...

For example: if he calculates his plane costs $175 per hour to operate
with
all direct costs and reserves (maint, OH, avionics), can he bill that to
the
client?

He's not billing the client for HIS compensation (unless his contract
allows
him to bill at his normal hourly rate for travel time).

On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 16:35:42 -0700, "Tom S." wrote:

Yes, but he's not asking for compensation for the flight, only if he can
bill for the direct/indirect costs for the flight.

First of all, he's not asking that. He's asking "Can I bill my client some
reasonable rate for travel expenses when I use my plane?"

And the answer is "Yes".

There is no prohibition in the FAR's, in the circumstance of using an a/c
for business travel of this sort, for billing for the use of the aircraft.




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

You can't write off commuting expenses.

Mike
MU-2


"Pat Thronson" wrote in message
t...
"61.113 (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:"



I know this is a little off track on this thread but this brings up a
question that has been bugging me for 14 years now,



My accountant will not allow me to write off a plane to travel to the
office
1,200 miles distance from my home, instead of a long 2 day drive. Although
I
believe it is to get to work on a more "timely and rested manner" He does
give the mileage on my truck but wont budge on the plane. My company ( I
am
8.5 % part owner) will not pay for the travel and especially the flight.
Does anybody know if I could write off the plane before actually making
money for the company or is he telling the truth??



Pat Thronson PP ASEL

Babb, MT

In article ,
"Tom S." wrote:


Since there seems to be a fair amount of misinformation, let me repeat my
response to another poster (and concur with Mike Rapoport's early
response):

======================
61.113 (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment;
and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for
compensation or hire.
=====================

Flying yourself to a business meeting, or sales calls, where the business
is essentially unrelated to aviation, is specifically allowed as a
situation in which you can be compensated as a private pilot.



The key to that is flying "yourself". If you take along your partner to
the business meeting ... you've blown it.

Edward

Did I state your question properly?

Tom

"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:66YWa.51594$o%2.26023@sccrnsc02...
First - thanks all for the replies.

I figure it cost me about $130 an hour to fly my '79 TR-182, including
direct and indirect costs. My usual trip to see my client in Phoenix takes
about 8 hours round trip, or $1,040. I can fly economy commercial, and
park
my car for about $500. While I'd love to charge my client the difference,
I
really can't justify it. On the other hand, I'll happily pay the
incremental
$540 out of pocket and have my own first class seat...


Michael
"Tom S." wrote in message
...

For example: if he calculates his plane costs $175 per hour to operate
with
all direct costs and reserves (maint, OH, avionics), can he bill that to
the
client?

He's not billing the client for HIS compensation (unless his contract
allows
him to bill at his normal hourly rate for travel time).

Jack Wynn Jr wrote:
Sure, you can have your client reimburse you for flight expenses. But
expenses only. Fuel, Aircraft Rental, Landing Fees, special charts, etc
would all be allowed to be reimbursable by your client.

Jack,

I think you're confusing the FAA regulations for a PPL carrying
passengers, vs. a PPL flying on business which is incidental to
the flight.

Cheers,
Sydney

Newps wrote:

Sydney Hoeltzli wrote:
I think if you bill the client a rate commensurate with gov't
milage for driving, or with a commercial airline ticket purchased
on the same time scale, no one will look twice, neither your
client nor the IRS nor the FAA.

Be careful there. On a short trip, say 150 miles, our local air taxi
fare will run over $100. You're making pretty good money if you bill
each client in the plane that amount

If you take a look at what I posted, I'm operating on the assumption
that he's not talking about flying clients -- a different set of issues
-- but rather, being reimbursed for his own travel expenses. If
there are other people in the plane, it's a different set of issues.

If the plane is just his way to get there, it's between Michael and his
clients what sort of travel expenses they're willing to stand him. I
assume his "site visit" fee would go up if he's required to spend 3 hrs
driving someplace he could fly to in 40 minutes. Mine sure would.

Cheers,
Sydney

On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 21:12:35 -0500, Edward Todd
wrote:

In article ,
"Tom S." wrote:


Since there seems to be a fair amount of misinformation, let me repeat my
response to another poster (and concur with Mike Rapoport's early
response):

======================
61.113 (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment;
and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for
compensation or hire.
=====================

Flying yourself to a business meeting, or sales calls, where the business
is essentially unrelated to aviation, is specifically allowed as a
situation in which you can be compensated as a private pilot.



The key to that is flying "yourself". If you take along your partner to
the business meeting ... you've blown it.

Edward

Edward,

I'm not sure of the answer to that. And even after reviewing the FAQ's on
the FAA web site, I remain confused.

It seems to me that if one is merely carrying a coworker to a business
meeting that the pilot *is also* attending, that the private pilot can be
compensated by his employer. Certainly he can carry passengers that are
NOT co-workers and still be reimbursed:

In addition, the FAQ's state: "...But the FAA in all its past policy
statements and legal interpretations have always taken a very strict
interpretation on § 61.113(b)(1). Previous examples that have been offered
to explain what is meant by ". . . The flight is only incidental to that
business or employment . . .", [i.e., § 61.113(b)(1)] would be where the
holder of private pilot certificate uses the company aircraft for
transportation on an infrequent, non-reoccurring basis, and some of the
other company personnel elect to go along to attend a meeting. The flight
has nothing to do with that business or employment and is just a means of
transportation."

"If a private pilot is conducting a flight that fits into the ". . . flight
is only incidental to that business or employment . . ." exception [i.e.,
paragraph (b)(1) of § 61.113], it is legal for a private pilot to be
reimbursed by his/her employer regardless of whether any other passengers
are carried or not. Thus for example, a wife or husband of a private pilot
may go along on a flight, and in essence get a "free" ride. This kind of
flight [i.e., ". . . flight is only incidental to that business or
employment . . ."] is an exception to the shared expense provisions of
paragraph (c)."

It has always seemed to me that the key is whether or not the pilot is
carrying passengers *for compensation or hire*. If that's not his job, and
the a/c is used only for transportation to a meeting that has nothing to do
with aviation, then under 61.113b he should be able to be compensated (or
reimbursed).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

The FARs state that a PP *can* be compensated for flight
expenses as long as the flight activity is unrelated to the work activity,
e.g. the flight is simply a means of transportation to the work.

Amazing. I can be paid for flying to Biddeford to photograph a
wedding, but not for photographing a house from the air!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

It doesn't hurt to fill the plane with computers/books & take a
few pictures to prove later (if necessary) that private airplane
transport made sound economic sense for this particular client.

Very good advice. The secret to never being audited is to be ready for
an audit, and the secret to being ready for an audit is the ability to
drown Donna Tax Adjuster in paperwork.

One year I had the daybed in my office re-upholstered, and I worried
about how I would explain *that* to Donna. So I had my wife photograph
me writing on a yellow legal pad, lying on the bed with my knees
propped up. (Bad back It went into my Current Taxes folder so I
could always pull it out and show it to Donna.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com