dropped in D

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count?

No.

My hypothesis is that the controller did himself and you a favor. McEntire
called and asked if anyone was talking to you, the controller dropped you,
and then replied, no. File the ASRS within ten days.

Flying VFR, there are no direction of flight restrictions below 3000 AGL, so
a climb to an altitude, 2600 AGL in most cases, allows you to avoid Class D.
If weather is a factor, circumnavigate the airspace or call the tower. For
the controller, simply advise of your intentions (climb, or leaving freq.).

--

Bob
PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI

Maule Driver wrote:
Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.

Maule Driver,

This was the subject of a long thread some time ago.

The bottom line is:

It is NOT the responsibility of a pilot receiving radar services
to coordinate with each surface area he flies through. (if he
is landing in that surface area, ordinarily radar services would
be terminated prior to entering it)

The facility providing the radar services is supposed to coordinate,
and maintaining contact with them counts under the communication
requirement of the FARS.

I have heard before that there are some areas where this does
not happen, but it is spelled out quite clearly in the controller's
regulations (7110.65) it is supposed to.

The particular situation described is problematic, because the
facility providing radar services terminated them w/out a handoff.
In that circumstance, I personally would probably contact the tower
immediately, including in my call up something like "I had
radar services from XXXX, I assume they coordinated with you".
(because that's what's supposed to happen).

Cheers,
sydney

Robert Henry wrote:
"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count?


No.

Yes, it does. Why would you think it doesn't? 14CFR 91.129
does not specify that the pilot must establish or maintain
communications with the control tower, simply with "the ATC
facility providing air traffic services". A radar facility
which provides approach services to a class D airport certainly
counts.

From 7110.65:
2-1-16 Surface Areas
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit
authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service
to an aircraft that will enter another facilities airspace

Note: the pilot is not expected to obtain his own authorization
through each area when in contact with a radar facility

My hypothesis is that the controller did himself and you a favor.

You can hypothesize anything you want, but if McEntire called
the radar controller and asked if anyone was talking to that
code in his airspace, the radar controller dropped the ball and
is in error. This is clearly spelled out in the regulations
he must follow.

Cheers,
Sydney

Arden Prinz wrote:

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count? Normally I
think Shaw Approach provides approach ATC functions for Mc Entire.

Yes, it counts.

Shaw approach is responsible to coordinate class D transitions if
you are receiving radar services from them when you enter class
D surface area.

This is clearly spelled out in the controller's regulations
(7110.65).

The only complication in your case is that they terminated
your radar services while you were in the Class D area, making
it hard to "maintain continuous communication". In that
case, I would call the tower before switching code, giving
location and intentions and saying something like "I had
radar services from Shaw, I assume they coordinated with you
before I entered".

Even facilities which normally don't coordinate (as they're
supposed to) won't generally get in a p***ing match on freq
with a pilot who politely makes it clear he knows how it's
supposed to work.

If it makes you feel better though, you can file an ASRS
describing the quandry you were placed in, maybe someone will
tweak some procedures at Shaw Approach.

Cheers,
Sydney

Arden Prinz wrote:
(Nathan Young) wrote in message . com...
Interesting thread. I am curious to see what others think.
I have always assumed that VFR flight following does not provide
transition services to facilities that aren't on their field.

You assume wrong. They are supposed to.

I guess I was assuming that since Shaw Approach provides approach
functions for Mc Entire, that I was OK having two way communications
with Shaw Approach (or that Shaw Approach would tell me when to switch
if I needed to switch).

You assumed rightly. That's how it's supposed to work.

I run into this getting flight following around the OHare Bravo, and
crossing through DuPage's Class D.

I've heard this before about these specific facilities, but that's
not how it's supposed to work. If you have radar services, they're
supposed to coordinate the class D transition.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...

I recently made a flight from Sumter, SC (SMS) to Columbia Metro
(CAE). Just after takeoff from Sumter, I contacted Shaw AFB approach,
told the controller that I was going to Columbia Metro, and got flight
following. Between Shaw class C airspace and Columbia class C
airspace there is Mc Entire ANGS class D airspace. As I approached Mc
Entire airspace, I figured that I was OK to enter because I had
established two-way communications with Shaw approach.


You were correct. A radar controller is required to coordinate the
transition of Class D airspace with the control tower when providing radar
traffic advisories. You are not expected to contact the tower yourself.


FAA Order 7110.65N Air traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require
flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless
otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in
Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior
to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Radio Communications Transfer, Para 2-1-17.
FAAO 7110.65, Surface Area Restrictions, Para 3-1-11.
FAAO 7110.65, Application, Para 7-6-1.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.



After I got in
the middle of Mc Entire class D airspace, Shaw approach gave me "radar
services terminated, squawk VFR, for further flight following suggest
you contact Columbia approach on 133.4". Hmmmm.... Doesn't this mean
that the instant after he terminated me, that I was not in two-way
communication with the ATC facility (and unintentionally in violation
of 91.129(c)(1))?


No, it doesn't. Note that FAR 91.129(a) begins with "Unless otherwise
authorized...".


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility
having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§ 91.126 and
91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport
for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is
any other airport within the Class D airspace area.



If so, what action should I have taken? Honestly,
I would have expected a handoff to either the Mc Entire tower
controller or to the Columbia approach controller, as opposed to a
"...suggest you contact...".

Also, 91.129(d) says "Each person who operates an aircraft in a class
D airspace area must maintain two-way radio communications with the
ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area." Where is "..the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over that area" defined?


I've never seen an explicit definition.



For example,
for the Mc Entire class D airspace, is this just the Mc Entire tower,
or do Shaw approach and Columbia approach also have jurisdiction over
that area?


Unless delegated some authority from the overlying IFR facility, (Center or
approach control) VFR towers don't actually have any real authority over
airspace. About all they can do is require arriving VFR aircraft to remain
outside.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
.com...

Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it
is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.


No. It is the responsibility of the radar controller to coordinate the
transition of Class D airspace.


FAA Order 7110.65N Air traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require
flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless
otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in
Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior
to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Radio Communications Transfer, Para 2-1-17.
FAAO 7110.65, Surface Area Restrictions, Para 3-1-11.
FAAO 7110.65, Application, Para 7-6-1.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.



You don't have a clearance of any sort so your path of flight as well as
altitude is at your discretion. If you are in Class B,C,D, then the
controller can give you vectors and altitudes but doesn't necessarily have
to under FF.


The radar controller can issue vectors to VFR aircraft in Class B and Class
C airspace, but not in Class D airspace unless it is also a TRSA.

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count?


Yes, but you have to give them a fighting chance to coordinate the
transition. You can't call Shaw approach just as you're about to enter the
McEntire Class D airspace.



Normally I
think Shaw Approach provides approach ATC functions for Mc Entire.


They do.

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

I guess I was assuming that since Shaw Approach provides approach
functions for Mc Entire, that I was OK having two way communications
with Shaw Approach (or that Shaw Approach would tell me when to switch
if I needed to switch). I guess that's what I get for assuming!!


Shaw approach is required to coordinate the transition, it's not an option.
If they fail to coordinate the transition it's their error, not yours.

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

Perhaps, but I'm not sure how that impacts my requirement to
have/maintain two way communication.


You were relieved of the requirements of FAR 91.129(c)(1) in accordance with
FAR 91.129(a).


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility
having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§ 91.126 and
91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport
for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is
any other airport within the Class D airspace area.