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  #11  
Old October 10th 04, 06:59 AM
Rich S.
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"Richard Riley" wrote in message
...
:
(C-182 stuffed with explosives + joint session of congress) * suicidal
islamist = no general aviation ever again.


You *can't* seriously believe that a terrorist is going to request a BFR.
And if for some fool reason he is too stupid to simply write one into his
logbook - and does attempt to hire an instructor - that he will not be
provided with adequate (but false) proof of citizenship?

Also, what makes you believe that proof of citizenship (real or false) is
any assurance that the bearer is not a terrorist?

This rule will have absolutely NO EFFECT in deterring terrorism. It is
another "feel good" gesture. An unfunded government mandate with no other
purpose than to widen government control of the public. And you are ready to
kneel down for this? Hard to fathom, Mr. Riley - hard to fathom.

Rich S.


  #12  
Old October 10th 04, 12:51 PM
jls
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"Richard Riley" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 21:07:36 -0500, Charlie England
wrote:

: :Frog + water + slow simmer.
: :
: (C-182 stuffed with explosives + joint session of congress) * suicidal
: islamist = no general aviation ever again.
:^speculation^
:
:Reality based on empirical evidence(Warning: Remedial Math follows):
:
:Rental trucks stuffed with explosives*terrorists of various religious &
olitical persuasions across multiple administrations=hundreds of
:deaths+$millions damage+no action whatsoever to limit access to rental
:trucks
:
:Airliners stuffed with incendiaries+big buildings*suicidal
:islamist=almost instant return of airline flying-months of grounded
:general aviation

Exactly. You've just shown how fragile GA is. We could loose (sic) it in
an instant.


You sound like Chicken Little. And why should GA be punished when it was
commercial aviation role in 9-11?


  #13  
Old October 10th 04, 02:04 PM
Blueskies
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Richard Riley" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:45:30 GMT, Shiver Me Timbers
wrote:

: Richard Riley wrote:
:
: it won't mean the end of GA.
:
:Well an interesting question would be....
:
:What would the financial impact be, not only in the US but in most
ther countries of the World if GA was stopped cold in the US.
:
:Airplane manufactures..... how many in US how many worldwide.
:
:How many employess would it affect in just the US.
:
:Unemployed people don't pay taxes, neither do closed manufacturing
:facilities.
:
:Then there is the spin off manufacturing companies, Teledyne, King
:avionics.... well you get the picture.
:
:Those airports.... Oh what would they do with all those empty airports.
:
:Empty of people that is.
:
:And the list goes on and on and on.
:
:From the lady frying up $100 hamburgers, to the mechanic on the line.
:
:And all those fuel sales that won't get made.
:
:Local, State, and Federal taxes.
:
:What would the financial impact be if General Aviation were stopped
:cold in it's tracts.

Not much. Most small airports don't make money for the municipalities
that own them. The number of jobs they support is low, especially
when compared to the value of the land. Financially speaking, most
small airports would make more for the community if they were closed
and turned into housing or industrial parks.

That's why so many cities want to close them, and it's so hard to keep
them open.

There aren't a significant number of manufacturing jobs, a few 10's of
thousands at the most.

The biggest hit would be in making it harder to get trained pilots for
the airlines - but that can be overcome.

Yes, it would be a hit to the economy. EVERYTHING is a hit to the
economy. How many more people would be employed if recreational drugs
were legal? Or if the drinking age were lowered to 18, or smoking was
allowed in California bars? If you really want to see an employment
boom, legalize prostitution. Employment and economic factors are the
only thing that decides this stuff.

If a small plane kill ONE politician, most politicians will vote to
outlaw them. If a small plane kills 100 children, the outcry will be
unstoppable. You think the woman who sells $100 hamburgers, an A&P, a
CFI or a Bonanza owner is going to get more press than 200 grieving
parents?




Hmmm, so freedom sucks, eh? The best part of the USA that we can continue to use our aircraft


  #14  
Old October 10th 04, 02:12 PM
Blueskies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Richard Riley" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:45:30 GMT, Shiver Me Timbers
wrote:

: Richard Riley wrote:
:
: it won't mean the end of GA.
:
:Well an interesting question would be....
:
:What would the financial impact be, not only in the US but in most
ther countries of the World if GA was stopped cold in the US.
:
:Airplane manufactures..... how many in US how many worldwide.
:
:How many employess would it affect in just the US.
:
:Unemployed people don't pay taxes, neither do closed manufacturing
:facilities.
:
:Then there is the spin off manufacturing companies, Teledyne, King
:avionics.... well you get the picture.
:
:Those airports.... Oh what would they do with all those empty airports.
:
:Empty of people that is.
:
:And the list goes on and on and on.
:
:From the lady frying up $100 hamburgers, to the mechanic on the line.
:
:And all those fuel sales that won't get made.
:
:Local, State, and Federal taxes.
:
:What would the financial impact be if General Aviation were stopped
:cold in it's tracts.

Not much. Most small airports don't make money for the municipalities
that own them. The number of jobs they support is low, especially
when compared to the value of the land. Financially speaking, most
small airports would make more for the community if they were closed
and turned into housing or industrial parks.

That's why so many cities want to close them, and it's so hard to keep
them open.

There aren't a significant number of manufacturing jobs, a few 10's of
thousands at the most.

The biggest hit would be in making it harder to get trained pilots for
the airlines - but that can be overcome.

Yes, it would be a hit to the economy. EVERYTHING is a hit to the
economy. How many more people would be employed if recreational drugs
were legal? Or if the drinking age were lowered to 18, or smoking was
allowed in California bars? If you really want to see an employment
boom, legalize prostitution. Employment and economic factors are the
only thing that decides this stuff.

If a small plane kill ONE politician, most politicians will vote to
outlaw them. If a small plane kills 100 children, the outcry will be
unstoppable. You think the woman who sells $100 hamburgers, an A&P, a
CFI or a Bonanza owner is going to get more press than 200 grieving
parents?




Hmmm, so freedom sucks, eh? I suppose you are for the bill that was proposed a couple of weeks ago that would make us
"safer" by outlawing GA flights over cities of 1 million or more and requiring all pilots to get permission before they
took off?

The best part of the USA that we will continue to use our aircraft even if a bad thing happens. The mob does not rule,
the constitution does...

There is no way that having folks show some sort of identification will stop someone if they want to take over an
aircraft. What will stop them is all of us free people watching and paying attention. I'll cover your back if you cover
mine...





  #15  
Old October 10th 04, 02:12 PM
Blueskies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Richard Riley" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:45:30 GMT, Shiver Me Timbers
wrote:

: Richard Riley wrote:
:
: it won't mean the end of GA.
:
:Well an interesting question would be....
:
:What would the financial impact be, not only in the US but in most
ther countries of the World if GA was stopped cold in the US.
:
:Airplane manufactures..... how many in US how many worldwide.
:
:How many employess would it affect in just the US.
:
:Unemployed people don't pay taxes, neither do closed manufacturing
:facilities.
:
:Then there is the spin off manufacturing companies, Teledyne, King
:avionics.... well you get the picture.
:
:Those airports.... Oh what would they do with all those empty airports.
:
:Empty of people that is.
:
:And the list goes on and on and on.
:
:From the lady frying up $100 hamburgers, to the mechanic on the line.
:
:And all those fuel sales that won't get made.
:
:Local, State, and Federal taxes.
:
:What would the financial impact be if General Aviation were stopped
:cold in it's tracts.

Not much. Most small airports don't make money for the municipalities
that own them. The number of jobs they support is low, especially
when compared to the value of the land. Financially speaking, most
small airports would make more for the community if they were closed
and turned into housing or industrial parks.

That's why so many cities want to close them, and it's so hard to keep
them open.

There aren't a significant number of manufacturing jobs, a few 10's of
thousands at the most.

The biggest hit would be in making it harder to get trained pilots for
the airlines - but that can be overcome.

Yes, it would be a hit to the economy. EVERYTHING is a hit to the
economy. How many more people would be employed if recreational drugs
were legal? Or if the drinking age were lowered to 18, or smoking was
allowed in California bars? If you really want to see an employment
boom, legalize prostitution. Employment and economic factors are the
only thing that decides this stuff.

If a small plane kill ONE politician, most politicians will vote to
outlaw them. If a small plane kills 100 children, the outcry will be
unstoppable. You think the woman who sells $100 hamburgers, an A&P, a
CFI or a Bonanza owner is going to get more press than 200 grieving
parents?




Hmmm, so freedom sucks, eh? I suppose you are for the bill that was proposed a couple of weeks ago that would make us
"safer" by outlawing GA flights over cities of 1 million or more and requiring all pilots to get permission before they
took off?

The best part of the USA that we will continue to use our aircraft even if a bad thing happens. The mob does not rule,
the constitution does...

There is no way that having folks show some sort of identification will stop someone if they want to take over an
aircraft. What will stop them is all of us free people watching and paying attention. I'll cover your back if you cover
mine...





  #16  
Old October 10th 04, 02:13 PM
Blueskies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Richard Riley" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:45:30 GMT, Shiver Me Timbers
wrote:

: Richard Riley wrote:
:
: it won't mean the end of GA.
:
:Well an interesting question would be....
:
:What would the financial impact be, not only in the US but in most
ther countries of the World if GA was stopped cold in the US.
:
:Airplane manufactures..... how many in US how many worldwide.
:
:How many employess would it affect in just the US.
:
:Unemployed people don't pay taxes, neither do closed manufacturing
:facilities.
:
:Then there is the spin off manufacturing companies, Teledyne, King
:avionics.... well you get the picture.
:
:Those airports.... Oh what would they do with all those empty airports.
:
:Empty of people that is.
:
:And the list goes on and on and on.
:
:From the lady frying up $100 hamburgers, to the mechanic on the line.
:
:And all those fuel sales that won't get made.
:
:Local, State, and Federal taxes.
:
:What would the financial impact be if General Aviation were stopped
:cold in it's tracts.

Not much. Most small airports don't make money for the municipalities
that own them. The number of jobs they support is low, especially
when compared to the value of the land. Financially speaking, most
small airports would make more for the community if they were closed
and turned into housing or industrial parks.

That's why so many cities want to close them, and it's so hard to keep
them open.

There aren't a significant number of manufacturing jobs, a few 10's of
thousands at the most.

The biggest hit would be in making it harder to get trained pilots for
the airlines - but that can be overcome.

Yes, it would be a hit to the economy. EVERYTHING is a hit to the
economy. How many more people would be employed if recreational drugs
were legal? Or if the drinking age were lowered to 18, or smoking was
allowed in California bars? If you really want to see an employment
boom, legalize prostitution. Employment and economic factors are the
only thing that decides this stuff.

If a small plane kill ONE politician, most politicians will vote to
outlaw them. If a small plane kills 100 children, the outcry will be
unstoppable. You think the woman who sells $100 hamburgers, an A&P, a
CFI or a Bonanza owner is going to get more press than 200 grieving
parents?




Hmmm, so freedom sucks, eh? I suppose you are for the bill that was proposed a couple of weeks ago that would make us
"safer" by outlawing GA flights over cities of 1 million or more and requiring all pilots to get permission before they
took off?

The best part of the USA that we will continue to use our aircraft even if a bad thing happens. The mob does not rule,
the constitution does...

There is no way that having folks show some sort of identification will stop someone if they want to take over an
aircraft. What will stop them is all of us free people watching and paying attention. I'll cover your back if you cover
mine...






  #17  
Old October 10th 04, 10:51 PM
Del Rawlins
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:13:31 GMT, "Blueskies" wrote:

The mob does not rule, the constitution does...


Where have you been?

There is no way that having folks show some sort of identification will stop someone if they want to take over an
aircraft. What will stop them is all of us free people watching and paying attention. I'll cover your back if you cover
mine...


I think you are right about ID not stopping anybody who is determined
to do evil, but I am not sure that everybody being ready to rat each
other out is any better. Unless of course you know that a particular
person doesn't belong with a particular airplane.


================================================== ==
Del Rawlins--
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply
  #18  
Old October 11th 04, 01:44 AM
Paul Lee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A lot of this is the result of sensational political paranoia.
Terrorists kill a few hundred people a year worldwide. In US alone
there are about 15,000 murders per year meaning one in every 200
people dies of murder in US instead of other causes. But those stats
are not important, we are used to them. What counts is the noise of
the day. Its not the first time politicians have overreacted -
Macartyism, internment of US Japanese citizens during WWII, etc. One
day sanity may return again. In the mean time we got to live in fear
from ourselves - and maybe that's really how terrorists are winning.
  #19  
Old October 11th 04, 01:53 AM
Dustrpilot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

There is no way that having folks show some sort of identification will stop
someone if they want to take over an
aircraft. What will stop them is all of us free people watching and paying
attention. I'll cover your back if you cover
mine...
But to add something to this, I had a "small" problem with one of our
wonderfull TSA guys today and one thing he said to me was "I cant us common
sense"........
We are spending way to much on feel good things that dont contribute to safety
and this proposal sounds like more of the same. Its not the law abiding
citizens that we need to watch, but we cant watch the people that have
historically caused the problems because it might violate "their" rights. We my
all be hosed.
  #20  
Old October 11th 04, 02:21 AM
Roger Halstead
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 13:09:40 -0700, Richard Riley
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:45:30 GMT, Shiver Me Timbers
wrote:

: Richard Riley wrote:
:
: it won't mean the end of GA.
:
:Well an interesting question would be....
:
:What would the financial impact be, not only in the US but in most
ther countries of the World if GA was stopped cold in the US.
:
:Airplane manufactures..... how many in US how many worldwide.
:
:How many employess would it affect in just the US.
:
:Unemployed people don't pay taxes, neither do closed manufacturing
:facilities.
:
:Then there is the spin off manufacturing companies, Teledyne, King
:avionics.... well you get the picture.
:
:Those airports.... Oh what would they do with all those empty airports.
:
:Empty of people that is.
:
:And the list goes on and on and on.
:
:From the lady frying up $100 hamburgers, to the mechanic on the line.
:
:And all those fuel sales that won't get made.
:
:Local, State, and Federal taxes.
:
:What would the financial impact be if General Aviation were stopped
:cold in it's tracts.

Not much. Most small airports don't make money for the municipalities


Oh, but over a few years the impact would be tremendous. It you think
the airlines have problems now, just wait.

The military no longer is capable of filling the airline's need for
pilots. If GA folds the impact on the industry as a whole will be
catastrophic.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

 




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