IFR student: circling approach struggles

All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four
years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.

Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard
to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.

Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.

"xyzzy" wrote in message
...


Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined
up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to
final.

It might help to give up the base leg and just make a 180 turn from
downwind.

Michael

If you are having problems with turn radius you need to slow down. The
turns should be coordinated and if you are slipping (not enough rudder) that
will widen your turns too. Radius of turn at 80kts and 30 deg bank is 973'
which means that you need less than a third of a nm to make a 180. This
should not be a problem as no IAP that I have seen has a circling vis
minimium less than that. Remember that turn radius goes up as the square of
the speed. Slow down.

Mike
MU-2


"xyzzy" wrote in message
...
All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years
and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.

Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined
up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to
final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet lower than
the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being called upon to
do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated, and significantly
lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to unlearn and as a
result my circling approaches are all overshooting final. So far I have
always been able to get back to it while staying coordinated and land with
plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself having an easier time doing
that than banking more than 30 degrees in a slip while only 300-400 feet
AGL.

Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.

On 7/22/2005 12:10, xyzzy wrote:

All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four
years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.

Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard
to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.

Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.


I can't imagine it would be OK to allow an uncoordinated turn.

I have the same problems. It really feels unnatural. However, when I'm
far enough from the runway in the downwind leg, the turns work out ok,
although there isn't much time on the base leg. Basically I level the
wings, verify that I can see the runway, and then begin my descent and
turn to final.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

As others have written, slow down. What aircraft are you flying? What
is your circling airspeed?

I got my instrument rating a month ago and at no point did I have to
practice slipping turns. Doesn't sound like the right way to address
the problem.

xyzzy wrote:


Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.

Hmmm good point, my instructor has been on me to keep the downwind
tight, maybe I'm making it too tight. And also probably not rolling
into the 30 degree bank fast enough.

slipping slowing down the turn, instructor sez to steepen the bank
and slip, because I am also rolling out on final too high.

Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are having problems with turn radius you need to slow down. The
turns should be coordinated and if you are slipping (not enough rudder) that
will widen your turns too. Radius of turn at 80kts and 30 deg bank is 973'
which means that you need less than a third of a nm to make a 180. This
should not be a problem as no IAP that I have seen has a circling vis
minimium less than that. Remember that turn radius goes up as the square of
the speed. Slow down.

Mike
MU-2


"xyzzy" wrote in message
...

All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years
and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.

Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined
up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to
final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet lower than
the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being called upon to
do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated, and significantly
lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to unlearn and as a
result my circling approaches are all overshooting final. So far I have
always been able to get back to it while staying coordinated and land with
plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself having an easier time doing
that than banking more than 30 degrees in a slip while only 300-400 feet
AGL.

Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.

Yossarian wrote:

As others have written, slow down. What aircraft are you flying? What
is your circling airspeed?

Flying a piper warrior, usually at 80 knots by then. As Mike R. said, I
may be keeping the downwind too tight.

xyzzy wrote:

All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four
years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.

Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard
to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.

Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.


No, but then I never was told during my primary training that 30 degrees
was a bank limit. :-) One advantage of learning to fly from an
old-timer instructor.

Seriously, when flying at reasonable speeds (80K or so) for most light
airplanes, I've never found excessive banks to be needed to fly a
circling approach. How fast are you coming down final?


Matt

xyzzy wrote:

Hmmm good point, my instructor has been on me to keep the downwind
tight, maybe I'm making it too tight. And also probably not rolling
into the 30 degree bank fast enough.

slipping slowing down the turn, instructor sez to steepen the bank
and slip, because I am also rolling out on final too high.

You can descend during the turn and still keep the turn coordinated.


Matt

Something way wrong is happening in your training.

First, read what Mike Rapoport wrote - it's correct and I won't repeat
it.

Second, what exactly are you using to estimate distance from the runway
on downwind? You should be about 3000-4000 ft away from the runway on
downwind. Any tighter is unnecessary and undesirable.

Third, steep banks and uncoordinated maneuvers on a circling approach
are bad news. You can do whatever you want day-VFR (in gliders we
consider 45 degrees of bank in the pattern normal) but when flying at
night, with flight visibility 1 mile in mist, it's just too easy to
lose visual references and lose control. Unfortunately, you really
won't get a flavor of what a REAL circling approach (one where the vis
is close to mins) is like if all you ever do is fly under the hood on
nice days, then lift the hood and circle in good VFR. The hard part of
the circling approach to mins starts AFTER you go visual.

Fourth, your circle should be planned. By that I mean that before you
ever reach the IAF (or intercept the FAC inbound) you should already
have your ground track figured out, and you should know where the
descent begins. It begins at whatever point is necessary to maintain a
3-4 degree descent to the runway. That's about 400-500 fpm at 80 kts.
Planning anything steeper doesn't give you much in the way of options
if you find yourself high.

Michael