Safety pilot - logging cross-country

You will get a variety of answers to this, but my answer is you cannot
count that time towards your IR.

A safety pilot is required only when the other pilot is wearing a view
liimting device. Since takeoffs and landings are done visually, a
safety pilot is not required during these portions. Therefore, you
could be PIC only during the enroute portion.

However, since a cross country flight must involve a takeoff and
landing, just the enroute portion does not qualify as XC time.

In reality, it would be fooling to log PIC XC time for any flight that
you did not plan yourself.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
In reality, it would be fooling to log PIC XC time for any flight that
you did not plan yourself.

Perhaps, but it seems like you're making up your own FARs. Your logic seems
to also imply that you're fooling yourself to log PIC while doing nothing
other than look out the window, but the FARs clearly say we can, and we do..

Hilton

Why do you say that I am making up my own FAR? Can you show that
logging PIC XC time as a safety pilot is consistent with the FARs?

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Can you show that
logging PIC XC time as a safety pilot is consistent with the FARs?

Sure. If I'm the safety pilot, I can log "Pilot in Command" time while the
hooded pilot logs "Pilot in Control" time. If we reach the destination
(say, 60nm away) where I assume control and land, I can log the flight as
PIC and XC.

Now, just because I can doesn't mean I would or should. I've mabye logged a
third of the time I've spent as a safety pilot - and those were when a
friend would be maintaining currency and not just proficiency.

It's my opinion that one should not try to game the system by sitting right
seat for a friend and then try to log that as time toward a new rating. The
point of the regs is to ensure you have the experience necessary and simply
making sure the greasy side stays down and nobody swaps paint doesn't
qualify as flight experience, IMHO.

--
John T
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Once the safety pilot assumes control of the aircraft and lands, the
other pilot will obviously not be the sole manipulator. Therefore the
other pilot can only log PIC for the enroute portion. Since a XC flight
must involve a landing, I don't see how he could log the flight as XC.

In reality, it is the pilot, the instructor and the DE who must be
satisfied with the logging. Most instructors and most DE's are onboard
with both pilots logging PIC under this circumstance (but not all). Not
sure enough instructors or DE's have seen this approach to logging
cross country to know what they think. Also if you are headed for pro
pilot with a major airline, your logs will undergo scrutiny. Will they
be happy? Who knows. If you, your co-pilot, your instructor and your DE
are happy with it, go ahead and log it, if you really need the cross
country time. But realize you are logging something that is a bit of a
gray area and it may come back to bite you. Then again, maybe not.

Whatever you do, make sure you have the skills to plan a long cross
country flight through timezone changes, prevailing wind direction
issues, length of day issues, and weather issues to understand them and
be able to anticipate their effect on your flight. Also make sure you
can plan your flight into an airport you have never been to before and
all that entails. as well as deal with complicated airspace. If you can
accomplish this with your method and everyone will sign things off, you
may be ok.

No reason why BOTH of you cannot plan the flight seperately and compare
your plans and choose the best of both. Could be interesting and a good
learning experience.

Below is a copy of an FAA Chief Counsel written opinion:

==================
Legal Interpretation # 92-52

October 30, 1992

Mr. David M. Reid

Dear Mr. Reid:

Thank you for your letter of June 12, 1992, concerning the logging of
pilot-in-command (PIC) time under the Federal Aviation Regulations
(FAR).

In your letter you ask four questions. First, you ask whether there
are "any circumstances when, during a normal flight, two Private Pilots
may simultaneously act as (and therefore log the time as)
Pilot-In-Command?" The answer is two private pilots may not
simultaneously act as PIC but they may, under certain circumstances,
simultaneously log PIC time.
There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time.
PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the
operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 deals
with logging PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or
commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which
he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he
is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he
acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required
under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted. It is important to note that FAR 61.51
only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements
toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight
experience.

Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC
simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time
simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC
responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight
time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and by the pilot who acts as the sole
manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is
rated under FAR 61.51. Enclosed please find two prior FAA
interpretations concerning logging of PIC time. We hope that these
will be of further assistance to you.

In your second question you ask "[h]ow shall two Private Pilots log
their flight time when one pilot is under the hood for simulated
instrument time and the other pilot acts as safety
pilot?" The answer is the pilot who is under the hood may log PIC time
for that flight time in which he is the sole manipulator of the
controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that aircraft. The
appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second in
command (SIC) that time during which he is acting as safety pilot.

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). Enclosed please find a
prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under
simulated instrument flight conditions. We hope that this
interpretation will be of further assistance to you.

In your third question you ask "[d]uring instrument training, how shall
a VFR Private Pilot log the following flight time: Pilot-In-Command
time, Simulated Instrument time, and Actual Instrument time, when that
pilot is ... A) ... under the hood? B) ...in actual instrument
conditions? C) ... under the hood in actual instrument conditions?"
The answer is the VFR private pilot may log all of the flight time you
described as PIC flight time under FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) if he was the
sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated.
Under FAR 61.51(c)(4) the pilot may log as instrument flight time only
that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to
instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
Please note that the FARs do not distinguish between "actual" and
"simulated" instrument flight time. Enclosed is a prior FAA
interpretation concerning the logging of instrument flight time. We
hope this interpretation will further assist you.

Finally you ask "[d]oes FAR 61.57 affect how the VFR Private Pilot
shall log Pilot-In-Command time during instrument training, either
before or after meeting the 6/6/6 requirement, and if so, how?" FAR
61.57 does not affect how a pilot logs PIC time during instrument
training; FAR 61.51(c)(2) and (4) govern logging of instrument flight
time. FAR 61.57(e) provides currency requirements for acting as PIC
under instrument flight rules (IFR) or in weather conditions less than
the minimums for visual flight rules (VFR). Enclosed please find a
prior FAA interpretation on instrument flight time and FAR 61.57(e).
We hope this interpretation will further assist you.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,

/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division

On 12/14/2005 08:48, wrote:

Below is a copy of an FAA Chief Counsel written opinion:

How does answer the question set forth by the original poster?
His question was about logging x-country time, which the referenced
legal interpretation doesn't touch.


==================
Legal Interpretation # 92-52

October 30, 1992

Mr. David M. Reid

Dear Mr. Reid:

Thank you for your letter of June 12, 1992, concerning the logging of
pilot-in-command (PIC) time under the Federal Aviation Regulations
(FAR).

In your letter you ask four questions. First, you ask whether there
are "any circumstances when, during a normal flight, two Private Pilots
may simultaneously act as (and therefore log the time as)
Pilot-In-Command?" The answer is two private pilots may not
simultaneously act as PIC but they may, under certain circumstances,
simultaneously log PIC time.
There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time.
PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the
operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 deals
with logging PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or
commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which
he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he
is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he
acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required
under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted. It is important to note that FAR 61.51
only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements
toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight
experience.

Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC
simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time
simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC
responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight
time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and by the pilot who acts as the sole
manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is
rated under FAR 61.51. Enclosed please find two prior FAA
interpretations concerning logging of PIC time. We hope that these
will be of further assistance to you.

In your second question you ask "[h]ow shall two Private Pilots log
their flight time when one pilot is under the hood for simulated
instrument time and the other pilot acts as safety
pilot?" The answer is the pilot who is under the hood may log PIC time
for that flight time in which he is the sole manipulator of the
controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that aircraft. The
appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second in
command (SIC) that time during which he is acting as safety pilot.

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). Enclosed please find a
prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under
simulated instrument flight conditions. We hope that this
interpretation will be of further assistance to you.

In your third question you ask "[d]uring instrument training, how shall
a VFR Private Pilot log the following flight time: Pilot-In-Command
time, Simulated Instrument time, and Actual Instrument time, when that
pilot is ... A) ... under the hood? B) ...in actual instrument
conditions? C) ... under the hood in actual instrument conditions?"
The answer is the VFR private pilot may log all of the flight time you
described as PIC flight time under FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) if he was the
sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated.
Under FAR 61.51(c)(4) the pilot may log as instrument flight time only
that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to
instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
Please note that the FARs do not distinguish between "actual" and
"simulated" instrument flight time. Enclosed is a prior FAA
interpretation concerning the logging of instrument flight time. We
hope this interpretation will further assist you.

Finally you ask "[d]oes FAR 61.57 affect how the VFR Private Pilot
shall log Pilot-In-Command time during instrument training, either
before or after meeting the 6/6/6 requirement, and if so, how?" FAR
61.57 does not affect how a pilot logs PIC time during instrument
training; FAR 61.51(c)(2) and (4) govern logging of instrument flight
time. FAR 61.57(e) provides currency requirements for acting as PIC
under instrument flight rules (IFR) or in weather conditions less than
the minimums for visual flight rules (VFR). Enclosed please find a
prior FAA interpretation on instrument flight time and FAR 61.57(e).
We hope this interpretation will further assist you.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,

/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:01:37 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 12/14/2005 08:48, wrote:

Below is a copy of an FAA Chief Counsel written opinion:

How does answer the question set forth by the original poster?
His question was about logging x-country time, which the referenced
legal interpretation doesn't touch.

It does say:

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i).

So, if the flight is XC, wouldn't this allow both (assuming the prior
PF/PNF/ultimate safety condition is met) to log both PIC and XC (but
no landings for PNF) time?

On 12/14/2005 09:40, Peter Clark wrote:

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:01:37 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 12/14/2005 08:48, wrote:

Below is a copy of an FAA Chief Counsel written opinion:

How does answer the question set forth by the original poster?
His question was about logging x-country time, which the referenced
legal interpretation doesn't touch.

It does say:

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i).

So, if the flight is XC, wouldn't this allow both (assuming the prior
PF/PNF/ultimate safety condition is met) to log both PIC and XC (but
no landings for PNF) time?

So what about the time when the left-seat pilot is not under the hood.
It sounds to me like they are making an exception for this case. Can
the safety pilot be PIC even while the left-seat pilot is not under
the hood? ... seems like a stretch to me.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA