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#1
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Anyone ever hear this from a controller
Flyers,
I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS." As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the approach." Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said, "Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach" So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone. Kobra |
#2
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Anyone ever hear this from a controller
"Kobra" wrote in message
... As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the approach." Sounds like it was a pretty quiet day and as a result he was being rather too informal. I would interpret the controller's instruction as meaning that you're VFR, and so he's expecting you to make whatever calls VFR requires (e.g. calling on final for clearance to land). The fact that you're intending to get there via a route that happens to coincide with the ILS is entirely circumstantial. Over the years I've had a lot of informal instructions/comments from ATC, though generally it's been informal but useful. (e.g. Me: "Blah blah request joining instructions; please confirm runway in use 27"; Them: "Join however you want, let me know which runway you'd like though"), though as my local airfield has become more and more busy with commercial traffic, this is rarely the case these days. Personally, I prefer it formal; the words to be spoken have been designed for a very good reason (i.e. to keep them clear and unambiguous, and thus promote safety) and so they should be used as such - particularly when informal instructions of the sort that you describe don't tell you what you actually wanted in the first place. D. |
#3
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Anyone ever hear this from a controller
"Kobra" wrote in message ... I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS." As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the approach." Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said, "Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach" So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone. Did your enroute routing take you over an IAF or feeder fix? If so, you should have just flown the previously assigned route until you were on a published segment of the ILS approach. You can begin descent to the published altitude for the route segment at your discretion. |
#4
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Anyone ever hear this from a controller
Kobra wrote:
Flyers, I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS." As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the approach." Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said, "Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach" So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone. Kobra I'm not an expert, but I think they expected you to fly to the IAF and fly the full approach. This is very standard, but a bit unusual, since mostly you get vectors to final, but actually, vectors are the special case, a full approach is more "standard" that is, it is what you should expect, and what you should fly if you don't get special instructions, ie. vectors. Brad |
#5
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Anyone ever hear this from a controller
Kobra wrote:
Flyers, I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS." As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the approach." Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said, "Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach" So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone. Kobra Trainee controller. We have them a lot at ELM also. Matt |
#6
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Anyone ever hear this from a controller
Kobra wrote:
Flyers, I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS." As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the approach." Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said, "Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach" So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone. Confusion is bad so whenever I'm confused I generally do one of two things: 1. Call ATC and tell them I don't understand their instruction and ask them what they really want me to do. 2. State clearly what I plan to do and then do it if I don't hear anything to the contrary. In your case, #1 might be: "Approach, verify that Cessna XXX is cleared for a full ILS YY approach." I'm trusting that as an instrument rated pilot you know what a full approach means. #2 might have been: "Approach, Cessna XXX is flying present position to the FAF for ILS YY and will fly inbound upon interception." Matt |
#7
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Anyone ever hear this from a controller
Kobra wrote:
Flyers, I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS." As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the approach." Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said, "Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach" So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone. Assuming the approach in question is the ILS 15 at KISM http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0704/05793IL15.PDF the approach is RADAR REQUIRED and has no IAFs. The clearance "cleared for the approach" with no vector is defective. With that clearance, you should head for the IAF of your choice for a "full" approach, but there is no IAF. You can only get vectors. |
#8
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Anyone ever hear this from a controller
I would interpret the controller's instruction as meaning that you're VFR, and so he's expecting you to make whatever calls VFR requires (e.g. calling on final for clearance to land). The fact that you're intending to get there via a route that happens to coincide with the ILS is entirely circumstantial. He said he was IFR. |
#9
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Anyone ever hear this from a controller
On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:42:17 -0400, "Kobra" wrote:
Flyers, I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS." As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the approach." Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said, "Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach" So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone. Kobra It sounds to me like a bogus clearance. This seems to be an approach with no IAF (at least on the Jepp chart), implying to me that you should have been receiving vectors to final. Perhaps the controller taking over thought that controller #1 had given you vectors to the final approach course, and was confused by your turning of what he thought was a vector. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#10
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Anyone ever hear this from a controller
Here's a rule to follow:
When you want an instrument approach, tell the controller, EVERY TIME: a) Which approach you want (use complete title e.g., ILS RWY 6) b) Whether you want vectors, or wish to start at an IAF, c) in the case of the latter, WHICH IAF you wish to start at, if there is more than one. Gets you and the controller on the same page right away. If he can't oblige your request, he'll work out another. There is NO REASON to start an approach without this understanding. By the way, why would you ever head for the FAF to begin an approach? No approaches ever start at the FAF. On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:42:17 -0400, "Kobra" wrote: Flyers, I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS." As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the approach." Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said, "Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach" So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone. Kobra |
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