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#241
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Future Club Training Gliders
In article Darryl Ramm writes:
Why would you cap a DG-1000 at a 3,000 hour life? There are already published 3000, 6000, 9000 (and every 1000 hours) inspections for the DG-1000. There are many high time ASK-21 around well beyond 3,000 hours. Many well used and patched up but still bright and shiny and modern looking. My bad. I was way too asleep when I wrote that. I found later that the service life of the ask-21 is 18,000 hours, apparently with similar inspections, where the DG claims 12,000 per another poster. In either case, the cost for that does go way down. OTOH the price quoted did was too low. No trailer, instruments, other options, etc. and I'm not sure a linear depreciation is the right model. Indeed, all true. I had forgotten about trailer/instruments/etc., stupidly assuming they were included. Linear depreciation is most likely wrong, too, though lots of cost/hour operation calculations seem to use i. I should have included insurance costs and other costs that are calculated into operating cost. For aircraft used for clubs and training, I would expect this to be a big item, and the order of magnitude higher price of the glider would have a large effect on the price of the annual insurance bill. But, I blew it big on the 3000 hours. Alan |
#242
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Future Club Training Gliders
http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/ I am very surprised at the extremely low number of add-on glider ratings. Can this be right? Last year, only 10 power pilots added on a glider rating in the entire US? If that's true, then we should be doing a serious marketing campaign aimed at power pilots who have let their medicals lapse. That's the really low hanging fruit. Low hanging fruit? Perhaps not. I knew a fellow a fellow software engineer (owned an Aztec), that was about to ditch a 6 figure software career to fly commuters for peanuts because he "just loved to fly" (his words). When i mentioned soaring to him, he just shook his head. It either rings your chimes or it doesn't - and flying one thing does not automatically translate into wanting to fly something else. Hang gliding is a lot more accessible now since there is a lot more aero towing. The funny thing is that when I mention hang gliding to sail plane pilots, they shake their heads the same way. Tony |
#243
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Future Club Training Gliders
At 15:47 14 September 2010, RN wrote:
The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we will need. We would be very interested in other club's experience with other trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future. Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and repair, durability for student solo operations, and up front cost . John First of all..most important is to have a training glider at the club whatever it is..well you know..no training no new pilots in the club.. Although, alot of of the older wood/metal/fabric gliders are a treat to fly and thermal. But more mordern trainers prepares new pilots better for the newer breed of gliders. What to buy?? Defenetly depends on how much money one got to spend..That also mostly depends on how much it will fly per year.. Small club..maby just have little money to spend/ flyes it 100 hrs a year? Big club have more money obviusly..they maby can fly it 3-4 times as much as the small club.. In my oppinion, Duo, DG 500, DG1000 (a beast to ground handle) ect are not primary trainers. Not rugged enough.. 1 If you have/want to spend alot. ASK 21, best trainer in total..of imortance is that its still in production, and have great quality in build and manufacturer support! But its expencive..even used. 60.000 Euro for a old with maby 6-8000 hrs on it...But its also a indicator of popularity and quality. Also, it will hold its walue over time. Wich probably makes it the cheapest over time. But, again you have to have the money... If money is not much of an object..Buy a new ASK-21mi!! 2. If you cant reach a ASK 21, Twin Astirs are alot of bang for the buck. Yes, handeling is a bit of a tank compared to a ASK 21. But it glides far better... It is rugged enough for traing. Ofcoarse Twin 2 and 3 are better, its a development.. You can buy one for about 20-30.000 euros. Grob is after reconstruction still giving support with bulletins ect. Spareparts sales are outsorced to Lidner (german glider workshop) So, Twins are good value trainers. 3. Polish glass trainers flyes good, but are of less build quality than the above, support/spareparts is what I know, unsure.. But also rugged construction. 4. Again, most important is that you have a glider to safely train new pilots and clubmembers...No trainer, no new members.. Performance is fun, but in the end, flying is fun, whatever u can fly in!!! 5 Nothing lasts forever..not even gliders (but they do survive longtime) When too old, its time to replace them with something newer..But risking a clubs economy to buy something beyond limits is just stupid..Its better to have the club alive, then not having a club at all... 6 To keep the the new pilot active, he/she needs something fun to fly after he got the licence too..so one maby shouldnt spend all the funds on a trainer..a glider with resonable performance for XC ect.. Some clubs (including my club) have been so focused primary training that they forgets about the next steps in the gliding career..So many basic trained pilots quits way to early.. That is a bad example of wrongly distrubuted enery and assets. We changed ouer 2 Bergfalkes for Twins 15 years ago, and never looked back. If we could afford it, we would buy ASK 21. But Twins have worked great. No major issues at all, due to construction ect. Repaires yes, if you damage a wing, it needs repairs..regardless of manufacturer ect.. Thousends of landings with new pilots. Some better than others..some really hard..never a damaged undercarrige. It has done good job as trainer. Its also used for xc traing. All in all, its a good club glider. Now, as most clubs, we dont have the same amount of new members that want to learn to fly. So, we want (if we can find the funds) to sell 1 twin, instead buy a Duo. Its a good 2 seater for the more "advanced" training, XC ect. But still a very good glider for the members who are more experienced..And yes, hotter ship for trial flights and "gift certificate flights".. Better promotor glider than the now well used Twins... |
#244
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Nov 24, 1:18*pm, Johan Nykvist wrote:
In my oppinion, Duo, DG 500, DG1000 (a beast to ground handle) ect are not primary trainers. Not rugged enough.. What do you base this on? We just moved from Twin Astirs to DG1000s. I can't see any way in which a fixed gear DG1000 Club is more of a beast to ground handle than a Twin Astir! In particular, lifting the tail to put the dolly on is considerably lighter. That this is so should be fairly obvious from the fact that a properly ballasted DG1000 Club is very nearly balanced on the main wheel and may sit on either the nose wheel or the tail wheel. Lacking nose wheels, and not wanting the nose to come into contact with the ground either at rest or when using the wheel brake, the main wheel on the Twin Astir is considerably further forward than it is on a 3-wheel undercarriage glider such as the ASK-21, Twin II/III, or DG1000 Club. The same is also true of the non-Club version of the DG1000 -- the retractable wheel is very far forward and there is a lot of weight on the tail. Perhaps you are not distinguishing between the (cheaper) Club and standard versions of the DG1000? Here's what I'm talking about: http://is.gd/hGLKd I'm also not sure where you get the "Not rugged enough" opinion. They seem to be very well built. |
#245
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Blanik L-13 Future Club Training Gliders
I'm told the Blanik L-13's are flying in the Czech republic now as long as
they have a properly documented history anyone heard anything new on the status in the USA? tim __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com |
#246
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Future Club Training Gliders
On 11/17/2010 9:59 PM, Tony V wrote:
http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/ I am very surprised at the extremely low number of add-on glider ratings. Can this be right? Last year, only 10 power pilots added on a glider rating in the entire US? If that's true, then we should be doing a serious marketing campaign aimed at power pilots who have let their medicals lapse. That's the really low hanging fruit. Low hanging fruit? Perhaps not. I knew a fellow a fellow software engineer (owned an Aztec), that was about to ditch a 6 figure software career to fly commuters for peanuts because he "just loved to fly" (his words). When i mentioned soaring to him, he just shook his head. It either rings your chimes or it doesn't - and flying one thing does not automatically translate into wanting to fly something else. Hang gliding is a lot more accessible now since there is a lot more aero towing. The funny thing is that when I mention hang gliding to sail plane pilots, they shake their heads the same way. Tony Did this guy ever take a glider ride? -- Mike Schumann |
#247
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Future Club Training Gliders
At 09:10 24 November 2010, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Nov 24, 1:18=A0pm, Johan Nykvist wrote: In my oppinion, Duo, DG 500, DG1000 (a beast to ground handle) ect are not primary trainers. Not rugged enough.. What do you base this on? We just moved from Twin Astirs to DG1000s. I can't see any way in which a fixed gear DG1000 Club is more of a beast to ground handle than a Twin Astir! In particular, lifting the tail to put the dolly on is considerably lighter. That this is so should be fairly obvious from the fact that a properly ballasted DG1000 Club is very nearly balanced on the main wheel and may sit on either the nose wheel or the tail wheel. Lacking nose wheels, and not wanting the nose to come into contact with the ground either at rest or when using the wheel brake, the main wheel on the Twin Astir is considerably further forward than it is on a 3-wheel undercarriage glider such as the ASK-21, Twin II/III, or DG1000 Club. The same is also true of the non-Club version of the DG1000 -- the retractable wheel is very far forward and there is a lot of weight on the tail. Perhaps you are not distinguishing between the (cheaper) Club and standard versions of the DG1000? Here's what I'm talking about: http://is.gd/hGLKd I'm also not sure where you get the "Not rugged enough" opinion. They seem to be very well built. Oh, Im sorry! I didnt think of the club version. My experience is from DG1000T. Its retractble landingear is hard work to operate. Also im not sure its rugged enough for longterm abuse from learners somtimes hard landings...well, some experineced pilots too! =) Not to mention the electrical gear.. Personally I think all of them is great gliders. But maby not for basic training. I ofcoarse can be wrong. My main point is they might be a to tricky to for beginners (to hard learning curve) to maintain correct airspeed at landings ect. Due to the higher performance, its accelerates very quickly when lowering the attitude. Is my personal oppinion. Sorry for not being clear enogh. The perfect world, I think, would be ASK 21 for basic training and a DuoT, DG1000T or ArcusT for the more advanced training. Nice ship on the link!! =) |
#248
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Future Club Training Gliders
Johan Nykvist wrote:
Personally I think all of them is great gliders. But maby not for basic training. I of coarse can be wrong. You are. Our club regularly uses the DG1000 for primary training. Retractable gear and 20 meters, no problem whatsoever. And rugged it is. The only weak point is the less than optimal view from the rear seat. Critics may mention the high cockpit which is hard to enter and the heavy tail. Well, the technique to enter the cockpit can be learned. And the heavy tail can easily be lifted if one of the pilots or whoever sits on the gliders nose. At least we are very happy with it. |
#249
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Future Club Training Gliders
At 20:36 24 November 2010, Mike Schumann wrote:
On 11/17/2010 9:59 PM, Tony V wrote: http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/ I am very surprised at the extremely low number of add-on glider ratings. Can this be right? Last year, only 10 power pilots added on a glider rating in the entire US? From the January 2010 issue to the December 2010 issue of Soaring Magazine, we published in the Milestones section the notices of about 20 power pilots who had added the glider rating. It's pretty doubtful that 100% of the add-on rating recipients send the photos and info to the magazine. (A few of the ratings in the January, February issues may have been from 2009). FWIW Chuck Coyne |
#250
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Future Club Training Gliders
If that's true, then we should be doing a serious marketing campaign aimed at power pilots who have let their medicals lapse. That's the really low hanging fruit. Low hanging fruit? Perhaps not. I knew a fellow a fellow software engineer (owned an Aztec), that was about to ditch a 6 figure software career to fly commuters for peanuts because he "just loved to fly" (his words). When i mentioned soaring to him, he just shook his head. It either rings your chimes or it doesn't - and flying one thing does not automatically translate into wanting to fly something else. Tony Did this guy ever take a glider ride? Not that I know of. He showed no interest at all. Tony |
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