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"Direct when able"



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 3rd 03, 11:23 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:y2e4b.232280$cF.75464@rwcrnsc53...

ATC has no responsibility for keeping you out of the trees until you reach

their MIA.


They do if they issue vectors while you're below the minimum altitude.


  #12  
Old September 3rd 03, 11:32 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...

The other day I was north of Syracuse and I asked for direct Rochester
(instead of flying down to Syracuse and following V2). The controller
cleared me "direct when able", and when the GPS showed that I would just
barely miss the restricted area (R-5203?), I turned. But evidently that
was too close for her, because a few minutes later she turned me 45
degrees off my course for a few minutes before she let me turn back.

I wonder if I should have said something to her about seeing the
restricted area on my GPS?


The book is a bit vague on that.

FAA Order 7110.65N Air Traffic Control

Chapter 9. Special Flights

Section 4. Special Use and ATC Assigned Airspace

9-4-2. SEPARATION MINIMA

Unless clearance of nonparticipating aircraft in/through/adjacent to a
Prohibited/Restricted/Warning Area/MOA/ATCAA is provided for in a Letter of
Agreement (LOA) or Letter of Procedure (LOP), separate nonparticipating
aircraft from active special use airspace by the following minima:

a. Assign an altitude consistent with para 4-5-2, Flight Direction, and
4-5-3, Exceptions, which is at least 500 feet (above FL 290-1000 feet)
above/below the upper/lower limit of the Prohibited/Restricted/Warning
Area/MOA/ATCAA.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Prohibited/Restricted Areas, Para 2-1-16.

b. Provide radar separation of 3 miles (En route Stage A/DARC, FL 600 and
above - 6 miles) from the special use airspace peripheral boundary.

c. Clear aircraft on airways or routes whose widths or protected airspace
do not overlap the peripheral boundary.

d. Exception. Some Prohibited/Restricted/Warning Areas are established for
security reasons or to contain hazardous activities not involving aircraft
operations. Where facility management has identified these areas as outlined
in FAAO 7210.3, Facility Operation and Administration, vector aircraft to
remain clear of the peripheral boundary.

NOTE-
Nonparticipating aircraft refers to those aircraft for which you have
separation responsibility and which have not been authorized by the using
agency to operate in/through the special use airspace or ATCAA in question.


Clearly, if the controller is vectoring you around SUA then 3 miles is the
minimum. If you're on an airway that clears the SUA then you're deemed to
be clear of the SUA without regard to how close you actually are to the SUA
boundary. But if you're proceeding via your own navigation direct to a fix
is just being clear of the SUA boundary good enough?


  #13  
Old September 4th 03, 01:44 AM
No Spam
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"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:y2e4b.232280$cF.75464@rwcrnsc53...

ATC has no responsibility for keeping you out of the trees until you reach

their MIA.


They do if they issue vectors while you're below the minimum altitude.



They won't issue you vectors below their minimum vectoring altitude. To do
so would be professional suicide.

No Spam



  #14  
Old September 4th 03, 02:00 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"No Spam" wrote in message
...

They won't issue you vectors below their minimum vectoring altitude. To do
so would be professional suicide.


It's done regularly.


FAA Order 7110.65N Air Traffic Control

Chapter 5. Radar

Section 6. Vectoring

5-6-3. VECTORS BELOW MINIMUM ALTITUDE

Except in en route automated environments in areas where more than 3 miles
separation minima is required, you may vector a departing IFR aircraft, or
one executing a missed approach, within 40 miles of the antenna and before
it reaches the minimum altitude for IFR operations if separation from
prominent obstructions shown on the radar scope is applied in accordance
with the following:

a. If the flight path is 3 miles or more from the obstruction and the
aircraft is climbing to an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the
obstruction, vector the aircraft to maintain at least 3 miles separation
from the obstruction until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude above
the obstruction.

b. If the flight path is less than 3 miles from the obstruction, and the
aircraft is climbing to an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the
obstruction, vector the aircraft to increase lateral separation from the
obstruction until the 3 mile minimum is achieved or until the aircraft
reports leaving an altitude above the obstruction.

c. At those locations where diverse vector areas (DVA) have been
established, terminal radar facilities may vector aircraft below the MVA/MIA
within those areas and along those routes described in facility directives.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Establishing Diverse Vector Area/s (DVA), Para 3-9-5.


  #15  
Old September 4th 03, 03:14 AM
Robert Henry
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As I found it recently by experience, even if you depart a towered airport
in other than Class E or G airspace.

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:y2e4b.232280$cF.75464@rwcrnsc53...
ATC has no responsibility for keeping you out
of the trees until you reach their MIA.

Bob Gardner



  #16  
Old September 4th 03, 04:06 AM
Richard Kaplan
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"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
et...
The FAA did not write the new instrument handbook. I wrote two chapters


myself. What the FAA did, however, was to edit the text severely and force
it to fit into some of their preconceived notions. I lost some good stuff
during the editing process



Interesting... could you give some examples? What motivated their fixed
preconceptions?

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com



  #17  
Old September 4th 03, 04:27 AM
Newps
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No Spam wrote:

They won't issue you vectors below their minimum vectoring altitude. To do
so would be professional suicide.


Every vector you get with your takeoff clearance is a vector below the MVA.

  #19  
Old October 21st 03, 01:19 AM
Hankal
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probably only if you had filed /I or /G . . .then you are telling her
you have an IFR capable GPS =


I just did a 1500 mile XC. Filing 172/U
I received at least 4 transmissons. Direct to Savana, Columbia St. Augustine.
Controller never queried if able.
I do have a VFR GPS with me, which helps me.
Hank N1441P
 




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