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"Stand Alone" Boxes (Garmin 430) - Sole means of navigation - legal?



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 27th 03, 12:39 AM
PaulaJay1
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In article , "Ron Natalie"
writes:

Since the Garmin 430 contains not only TSO'd
GPS but also VOR, LOC, GS, etc., my position is that this unit (without any
other navigation equipment on board) is legal as a "stand alone" for use en
route, terminal, and approach


Yep. As a matter of fact, many new aircraft are delivered with only
430/530's
as nav equipement.


A single 430 should not be used with the Idea that a VOR will always be
available if the GPS goes south. I had the display in my 430 fail which made
the COMPLETE unit inop.( unless you knew where the com was and could count the
clicks :-) )

Chuck
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  #12  
Old September 27th 03, 04:33 PM
Ron Natalie
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"PaulaJay1" wrote in message ...

A single 430 should not be used with the Idea that a VOR will always be
available if the GPS goes south. I had the display in my 430 fail which made
the COMPLETE unit inop.( unless you knew where the com was and could count the
clicks :-) )

That redundancy concern is different from the legal issues. It's perfectly legal
to fly (subject to the ground facilities needed) with a single NAVCOM. It can
just as easily go TU leaving you with no nav or com.

The regulations just say that if you are going to use GPS that your alternate requirements
have to be met without using GPS. They're figuring satellite geometry failure (GPS system)
not the reliablity of the box installed.


  #13  
Old September 28th 03, 04:37 AM
Fred E. Pate
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Tarver Engineering wrote:
"Fred E. Pate" wrote in message
...

GPS: TSO C129a, Class A1 (en route, terminal, and approach)


Yeah, your guess that he was referring to just the GPS portion is
correct. I've read about this "sole source" stuff in a number of places.
A non-WAAS reciever, as the 430s currently are, cannot be used as
"sole source" for anything except GPS approaches.



No, a 430 does not have accurate enough an altitude datum to be sole means.
Altitude is the first portion of WAAS to turn out to be a bust.


Well, I don't think "sole source" is that restrictive. A VOR reciever
is approved as a "sole source" of navigation. You still need an
altimeter. "Sole source" just refers to horizontal navigation. All GPS
approaches are currently non-precision: no vertical guidance.

  #14  
Old September 28th 03, 04:45 AM
Fred E. Pate
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Ron Natalie wrote:
The regulations just say that if you are going to use GPS that your alternate requirements
have to be met without using GPS. They're figuring satellite geometry failure (GPS system)
not the reliablity of the box installed.


Which is more likely though? I guess, by induction or extrapolation or
whatever, that the FAA figures ATC can handle one guy having a bad day
at a time (if his GPS/NAV box fails) and not half the airplanes all at
once (widespread GPS jamming or satellite system failure).

  #15  
Old September 28th 03, 03:59 PM
Tarver Engineering
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"Fred E. Pate" wrote in message
...
Tarver Engineering wrote:
"Fred E. Pate" wrote in message
...

GPS: TSO C129a, Class A1 (en route, terminal, and approach)

Yeah, your guess that he was referring to just the GPS portion is
correct. I've read about this "sole source" stuff in a number of places.
A non-WAAS reciever, as the 430s currently are, cannot be used as
"sole source" for anything except GPS approaches.



No, a 430 does not have accurate enough an altitude datum to be sole

means.
Altitude is the first portion of WAAS to turn out to be a bust.


Well, I don't think "sole source" is that restrictive. A VOR reciever
is approved as a "sole source" of navigation. You still need an
altimeter. "Sole source" just refers to horizontal navigation. All GPS
approaches are currently non-precision: no vertical guidance.


I do not believe "sole source" is regulatory. You may as well use the term
"eanie beanie".


  #16  
Old September 29th 03, 07:55 AM
Fred E. Pate
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Tarver Engineering wrote:


I do not believe "sole source" is regulatory. You may as well use the term
"eanie beanie".


Sounds good to me. "Not approved for eanie-beanie navigation without an
upgrade."

  #17  
Old September 29th 03, 03:40 PM
Ron Natalie
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"Fred E. Pate" wrote in message ...
Ron Natalie wrote:
The regulations just say that if you are going to use GPS that your alternate requirements
have to be met without using GPS. They're figuring satellite geometry failure (GPS system)
not the reliablity of the box installed.


Which is more likely though? I guess, by induction or extrapolation or
whatever, that the FAA figures ATC can handle one guy having a bad day
at a time (if his GPS/NAV box fails) and not half the airplanes all at
once (widespread GPS jamming or satellite system failure).


Depends on who made your equipment :-)

But the issue is, that they were concerned about GPS signal reliability NOT the
reliability of any single manufacturer's unit by this requirement.




  #18  
Old September 29th 03, 03:58 PM
Tarver Engineering
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"Fred E. Pate" wrote in message
...
Tarver Engineering wrote:


I do not believe "sole source" is regulatory. You may as well use the

term
"eanie beanie".


Sounds good to me. "Not approved for eanie-beanie navigation without an
upgrade."


I wonder if Garman will offer an upgrade. Since they bought UPSat, there
seems to be a tendancy to orphan GPS systems.


  #19  
Old September 29th 03, 08:29 PM
Richard
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Thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion. Special thanks to
those who actually answered my question!

"Richard" wrote in message
t...
Probably this has been answered in this forum previously, but I can't find
it. Sorry.

I recently got into a friendly discussion with a knowledgable CFII who

said
a Garmin 430 could not be legally used as "sole means of navigation".
Looking back, I think what he means is that "GPS" (even IFR certified

units)
can not be used as sole means. Since the Garmin 430 contains not only

TSO'd
GPS but also VOR, LOC, GS, etc., my position is that this unit (without

any
other navigation equipment on board) is legal as a "stand alone" for use

en
route, terminal, and approach . (I know charts are still necessary.)
Please advise.

The following came off the Garmin web site:
******************
GPS: TSO C129a, Class A1 (en route, terminal, and approach)

VOR: TSO C40c

LOC: TSO C36e

GS: TSO C34e

VHF COM: TSO C37d, Class 4 and 6 (transmit) and TSO C38d, Class C and E
(receiver)

The GNS 430 is the most versatile panel-mounted product GARMIN has

produced
to date. It combines GPS navigation, VHF communication, and moving map
graphics on a big color display. This "all in one box" 12-channel unit
offers IFR GPS, ILS, VOR, LOC and glideslope capability in a single,
space-saving package

**************************









  #20  
Old September 30th 03, 08:27 AM
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Tarver Engineering wrote:


I wonder if Garman will offer an upgrade. Since they bought UPSat, there
seems to be a tendancy to orphan GPS systems.



they've already committed to a WAAS upgrade for their GNS 430/530 boxes.

 




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