What First Glider to own?

On Dec 4, 11:03*am, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 23:15 03 December 2010, John Cochrane wrote:

Maybe a $40k glider, meaning $800 lost interest or $2000/ year
interest cost, isn't that "expensive" after all. And with a partner
(an excellent idea for a first purchase) now we can talk about an $80k
glider! * Owning a glider is, in the end, pretty cheap.

You're overlooking insurance costs, no? *And the more expensive glider
does cost more when the insurance premium comes due.

Jim Beckman

Another point to bear in mind is that the older the glider, the bigger
the chance it might have been repaired or modified by a previous
owner.

Early in my ownership of an ASW-20 a decade or so ago, as I slowed in
a strong thermal at cloudbase, the ship did an instantaneous stall/
spin entry and in an instant I was looking at sand and cactus instead
of blue sky and fluffy clouds. It turned out that the previous owner
had installed lead weights at various places in the ship (including
tail and wings) and the weight and balance was WAAAY off. This was
despite having had one done (but improperly) just before I took
ownership. Restoring the weight and balance to within the
manufacturer's specs cured that problem, but it's made me carefully
inspect any ship, esepcially previously owned ones, for damage and
modifications.

And always do your own weight and balance!

Mike

PS - I now own a Discus 2 with a newer Cobra trailer and I second the
finance professor's opinion about ownership costs. Apart from the
initial capital, newer ships aren't that expensive. Now, if we could
get the Euro back down to 0.8 against the US dollar!

Originally Posted by Mike the Strike

On Dec 4, 11:03*am, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 23:15 03 December 2010, John Cochrane wrote:

Maybe a $40k glider, meaning $800 lost interest or $2000/ year
interest cost, isn't that "expensive" after all. And with a partner
(an excellent idea for a first purchase) now we can talk about an $80k
glider! * Owning a glider is, in the end, pretty cheap.

You're overlooking insurance costs, no? *And the more expensive glider
does cost more when the insurance premium comes due.

Jim Beckman

Another point to bear in mind is that the older the glider, the bigger
the chance it might have been repaired or modified by a previous
owner.

Early in my ownership of an ASW-20 a decade or so ago, as I slowed in
a strong thermal at cloudbase, the ship did an instantaneous stall/
spin entry and in an instant I was looking at sand and cactus instead
of blue sky and fluffy clouds. It turned out that the previous owner
had installed lead weights at various places in the ship (including
tail and wings) and the weight and balance was WAAAY off. This was
despite having had one done (but improperly) just before I took
ownership. Restoring the weight and balance to within the
manufacturer's specs cured that problem, but it's made me carefully
inspect any ship, esepcially previously owned ones, for damage and
modifications.

And always do your own weight and balance!

Mike

PS - I now own a Discus 2 with a newer Cobra trailer and I second the
finance professor's opinion about ownership costs. Apart from the
initial capital, newer ships aren't that expensive. Now, if we could
get the Euro back down to 0.8 against the US dollar!

Thank you all so much for the information. I am very happy that this thread has produced so much discussion. There are many pilots like me out there who are considering their first ship. I hope that everyone will continue to add information here. Again, many thanks!

That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include:
Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle
Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find
that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice
on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can
weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this
price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control
response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a
Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but
they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing
experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for
our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few
years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also
talked to people who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your
height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of
them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright
lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and
felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs
Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't
seem to be designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and
not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both
in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous
amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same
side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one
for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside
a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the
standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable
as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a
pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before
flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it
isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any
parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been
extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field
with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to
fly quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

Originally Posted by Hagbard Celine

That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include:
Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle
Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find
that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice
on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can
weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this
price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control
response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a
Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but
they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing
experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for
our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few
years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also
talked to people who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your
height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of
them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright
lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and
felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs
Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't
seem to be designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and
not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both
in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous
amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same
side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one
for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside
a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the
standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable
as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a
pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before
flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it
isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any
parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been
extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field
with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to
fly quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct assumptions.

On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:51:38 +0000, Sparkorama wrote:

Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote:
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include: Schempp-Hirth Standard
Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find that
they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option too.
I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice on
their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can weigh
in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this price
range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control response
and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a Libelle type
rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but they are
roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing experiences
when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for our club's
single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few years ago and
I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also talked to people
who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your height,
weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of them out
for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright lengthwise in
the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and felt too
cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs Standard Jantar
but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't seem to be
designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and not
inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both in
terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous amount of
rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same side as the
airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one for the other
because they are widely separated (when you look inside a 15 it's
pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the standard
class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable as an
afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain
as you really need someone to help close it for you before flight, it
has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it isn't twitchy
at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any parts, TN's or
general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been extremely
helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field with two
Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to fly
quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and
originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain
and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct
assumptions.

Each different construction method has its own gotchas:

- metal: some years ago there was a very cheap Pilatus B4 on eBay,
but in the pictures you could easily see corrosion round the rivets
that attach the cockpit floor to the sides. Judging by the colour the
rivets were steel....

- wood: since you can't see the wing interior, you'll need to take the
state of the glue joints on trust or strip and recover the wings and
tail.

- glass: damage can be near invisible if it was finished carefully after
repairs, so a NDH claim has to be believed unless/until you do a weight
& balance as part of your pre-purchase inspection.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:51:38 +0000, Sparkorama wrote:

Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote:
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include: Schempp-Hirth Standard
Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find that
they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option too.
I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice on
their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can weigh
in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this price
range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control response
and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a Libelle type
rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but they are
roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing experiences
when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for our club's
single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few years ago and
I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also talked to people
who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your height,
weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of them out
for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright lengthwise in
the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and felt too
cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs Standard Jantar
but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't seem to be
designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and not
inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both in
terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous amount of
rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same side as the
airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one for the other
because they are widely separated (when you look inside a 15 it's
pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the standard
class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable as an
afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain
as you really need someone to help close it for you before flight, it
has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it isn't twitchy
at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any parts, TN's or
general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been extremely
helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field with two
Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to fly
quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.
I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and
originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain
and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct
assumptions.

Each different construction method has its own gotchas:

- metal: some years ago there was a very cheap Pilatus B4 on eBay,
but in the pictures you could easily see corrosion round the rivets
that attach the cockpit floor to the sides. Judging by the colour the
rivets were steel....

- wood: since you can't see the wing interior, you'll need to take the
state of the glue joints on trust or strip and recover the wings and
tail.

- glass: damage can be near invisible if it was finished carefully after
repairs, so a NDH claim has to be believed unless/until you do a weight
& balance as part of your pre-purchase inspection.


Interesting that "sparkorama" hasn't identified himself - which is
annoying to me because I've probably been in the back seat while he was
flying :-). In any case, He said "I'll be putting some winter flying
time in and I'm considering buying my first glider once I'm back to
comfortable solos and my private license.". So, take your time while you
get to solo and license - there's no need to rush. In any case, I
heartily endorse Juan's comment that you fly the heck out of the 1-34,
L-33, and B4 while you sort out what it is that you want to do with the
glider (XC, acro, flag pole sitting?) while waiting for your glider to
come on the market. For many used glider buyers, it's probably not a
good idea to look for a single glider because you may wait a looong time
for that glider to come around. Rather, you should decide on a range
gliders and buy the first (or second) one that comes up for sale that
meets your needs. BTW, George Waters has a glider that may fit your bill
:-).

Tony V. LS6-b "6N"

On Dec 6, 10:41*am, Hagbard Celine wrote:

If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too.

I've flown an Open Cirrus for some years and am very happy with it.

The heavy rigging is not a problem if you make two trestles - even
better with three (the third a low one to take the wing root while you
position yourself to slide it into the fuselage). I've made a simple
mid-wing dolly to take the weight, and can now easily rig solo.

Cockpit is very roomy, except if you're long in the body you may find
headroom very tight. Long legs are no problem at all.

Note that it's a heavy glider with airbrakes that are good enough but
with little in reserve. Speed control is paramount - 5 kts extra can
more than double your float and get you into trouble in a field
landing. However, if you can fly a steady approach you won't have any
problems, just check out the book figures and don't start adding some
speed "for safety".

Otherwise it's easy to fly and performs well if you don't rush it.
Sink rate rises rapidly beyond 60kt, and if you really want to go
places pull the speed back to 50 when (mine at least) gets better than
40:1.

I have been considering this same subject myself.

A Libelle is a good option if you can stand the horrible ugliness of the
things, and what is a fairly tight cockpit, regardless of some others
statements.

Ditto club Libelle.

H301 Hornet is good, with better performance, water ballst (100L) and much
more acceptable looks than a Libelle.

ASW15 is pretty cool but 15B is a better option, has bigger cockpit
length, and takes a small ammount of water ballast (50L). A nose hook is a
big plus for these as thay have an offset compromise hook as standard.

Astirs are ghastly in terms of control force/responsiveness,
but strongly built, quite reliable and easy to fly.

LS1 series excellent for the smaller pilot.

STD Cirrus, later models with extra washout are better for low hours
pilots, but stick free elevator stability is poor. On one occasion a pilot
who undid his straps to retrive a dropped object was thrown out of the
glider thru the canopy when he hit a bump and it went inverted. Luckily he
was wearing a chute(Not his normal practice) One literally cant take ones
hand off the stick!

Std Jantar1 pretty good all round.

Ditto for PIK20b/d if you dont mind flaps, big cockpit.

If you can go a bit more then without a doubt an LS4 is the nicest I have
flown. Whilst the performance is slighly less tha a Discus the feel for
the air is much better, and the cockpit much larger than even a DIscus B.

I have come to the conclusion that for me a Kestrel H401 is the best
option, has equal performance to Discus, and falls on the edge of the
price range. Has flaps and a somewhat busy but large cockpit layout. Easy
to fly.

I would avoid the following like the plague.

Phoebus, all models spins readily undercarriage failiures common.

Diamant, all models. C of G hook only all moving tail, tiny cockpit,
uglier than even Libelle.

Good luck and regards

Dave Lawley




At 18:51 06 December 2010, Sparkorama wrote:

Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote:
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your
own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include:
Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle
Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles
"Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find
that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any
advice
on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can
weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this
price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control
response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a
Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but
they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing
experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for
our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few
years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also
talked to people who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your
height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of
them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright
lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and
felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs
Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't
seem to be designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and
not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both
in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous
amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same
side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one
for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside
a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the
standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable
as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a
pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before
flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it
isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any
parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has
been
extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the
field
with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to
fly quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and
originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain
and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct
assumptions.




--
Sparkorama

On Dec 7, 9:50*pm, Dave Lawley wrote:
I have been considering this same subject myself.

A Libelle is a good option if you can stand the horrible ugliness of the
things, and what is a fairly tight cockpit, regardless of some others
statements.

Ditto club Libelle.

H301 Hornet is good, with better performance, water ballst (100L) and much
more acceptable looks than a Libelle.

ASW15 is pretty cool but 15B is a better option, has bigger cockpit
length, and takes a small ammount of water ballast (50L). A nose hook is a
big plus for these as thay have an offset compromise hook as standard.

Astirs are ghastly in terms of control force/responsiveness,
but strongly built, quite reliable and easy to fly.

LS1 series excellent for the smaller pilot.

STD Cirrus, later models with extra washout are better for low hours
pilots, but stick free elevator stability is poor. On one occasion a pilot
who undid his straps to retrive a dropped object was thrown out of the
glider thru the canopy when he hit a bump and it went inverted. Luckily he
was wearing a chute(Not his normal practice) One literally cant take ones
hand off the stick!

Std Jantar1 *pretty good all round.

Ditto for PIK20b/d if you dont mind flaps, big cockpit.

If you can go a bit more then without a doubt an LS4 is the nicest I have
flown. Whilst the performance is slighly less tha a Discus the feel for
the air is much better, and the cockpit much larger than even a DIscus B.

I have come to the conclusion that for me a Kestrel H401 is the best
option, has equal performance to Discus, and falls on the edge of the
price range. Has flaps and a somewhat busy but large cockpit layout. *Easy
to fly.

I would avoid the following like the plague.

Phoebus, all models spins readily undercarriage failiures common.

Diamant, all models. C of G hook only all moving tail, tiny cockpit,
uglier than even Libelle.

Good luck and regards

Dave Lawley

At 18:51 06 December 2010, Sparkorama wrote:





Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote:
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your
own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include:
Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle
Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles
"Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find
that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any
advice
on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can
weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this
price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control
response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a
Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but
they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing
experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for
our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few
years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also
talked to people who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your
height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of
them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright
lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and
felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs
Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't
seem to be designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and
not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both
in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous
amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same
side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one
for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside
a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the
standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable
as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a
pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before
flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it
isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any
parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has
been
extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the
field
with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to
fly quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and
originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain
and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct
assumptions.

--
Sparkorama- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have heard some horror stories about the Phoebus, from people that
had heard stories, but never flown one. Truth is the Phoebus is a
decent first sailplane for a private pilot with some Grob experience
and average skills.

My Phoebus C was one of the most docile sailplanes I have ever flown
and had not one bad quality. Everyone I know that has actually flown a
Phoebus (A,B, or C), including and usually being low time pilots,
report the same. If one is concerned, start with the CG in a forward
position.

The landing gear is not a problem. My understanding is that it was
made to be sacrificial when very rough landings were made, protecting
the fus from major damage.

For more Phoebus info: http://phoebus.vassel.com/site_page_2511/.

Mike

The Kestrel 19 is not a glider for the inexperienced.
It has a busy cockpit and demanding flight envelope to get the glider
correctly configured for the various flight phases.
It is not glider that can be rushed in the circuit and landing phases.
The glider needs space and time and requires the pilot to keep their
brains well ahead of the game.
Speak to some of the `old`Kestrel boys and they will put you straight!
Colin








At 08:41 08 December 2010, Mike wrote:
On Dec 7, 9:50=A0pm, Dave Lawley wrote:
I have been considering this same subject myself.

A Libelle is a good option if you can stand the horrible ugliness of
the
things, and what is a fairly tight cockpit, regardless of some others
statements.

Ditto club Libelle.

H301 Hornet is good, with better performance, water ballst (100L) and
muc=
h
more acceptable looks than a Libelle.

ASW15 is pretty cool but 15B is a better option, has bigger cockpit
length, and takes a small ammount of water ballast (50L). A nose hook
is
=
a
big plus for these as thay have an offset compromise hook as standard.

Astirs are ghastly in terms of control force/responsiveness,
but strongly built, quite reliable and easy to fly.

LS1 series excellent for the smaller pilot.

STD Cirrus, later models with extra washout are better for low hours
pilots, but stick free elevator stability is poor. On one occasion a
pilo=
t
who undid his straps to retrive a dropped object was thrown out of the
glider thru the canopy when he hit a bump and it went inverted.
Luckily
h=
e
was wearing a chute(Not his normal practice) One literally cant take
ones
hand off the stick!

Std Jantar1 =A0pretty good all round.

Ditto for PIK20b/d if you dont mind flaps, big cockpit.

If you can go a bit more then without a doubt an LS4 is the nicest I
have
flown. Whilst the performance is slighly less tha a Discus the feel
for
the air is much better, and the cockpit much larger than even a DIscus
B.

I have come to the conclusion that for me a Kestrel H401 is the best
option, has equal performance to Discus, and falls on the edge of the
price range. Has flaps and a somewhat busy but large cockpit layout.
=A0E=
asy
to fly.

I would avoid the following like the plague.

Phoebus, all models spins readily undercarriage failiures common.

Diamant, all models. C of G hook only all moving tail, tiny cockpit,
uglier than even Libelle.

Good luck and regards

Dave Lawley

At 18:51 06 December 2010, Sparkorama wrote:





Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote:
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your
own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include:
Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle
Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles
"Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll
find
that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point
the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If
you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any
advice
on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can
weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into
this
price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control
response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a
Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble)
but
they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing
experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder
for
our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a
few
years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also
talked to people who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by
Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in
"Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your
height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of
them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright
lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room
and
felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs
Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it
didn't
seem to be designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a
Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and
not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons
(both
in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous
amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same
side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one
for the other because they are widely separated (when you look
inside
a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per
the
standard class regs of the time and then changed over to
retractable
as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit
of
a
pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before
flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so
it
isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed
any
parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has
been
extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the
field
with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready
to
fly quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were
considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and
originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to
maintain
and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are
correct
assumptions.

--
Sparkorama- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have heard some horror stories about the Phoebus, from people that
had heard stories, but never flown one. Truth is the Phoebus is a
decent first sailplane for a private pilot with some Grob experience
and average skills.

My Phoebus C was one of the most docile sailplanes I have ever flown
and had not one bad quality. Everyone I know that has actually flown a
Phoebus (A,B, or C), including and usually being low time pilots,
report the same. If one is concerned, start with the CG in a forward
position.

The landing gear is not a problem. My understanding is that it was
made to be sacrificial when very rough landings were made, protecting
the fus from major damage.

For more Phoebus info: http://phoebus.vassel.com/site_page_2511/.

Mike