Wacky Tracky

Kirk, lets not go to extremes to prove a point. Please forgive me if I appear to have gone that path on occassion. But I think everyone, EVERYONE will agree that an audio vario is an essential item when a guy is gonna be flying in gaggles etc. we have beat this horse to death on other threads. The datruth guy I would assume agrees. But other items, not so much.

If I had a choice between a "modern" sailplane and the present state of "modern" soaring airmanship skills, or flying what you call a "retro" sailplane along with the skills most old "retro" glider flyers used to have, I will choose the old school approach every time. Old guys for the most part have been there done that enough to learn how to stay alive, and that survival is only partly enhanced by modernality.

There is great danger when money can purchase ships and systems that perform miles beyond the skill level of the jockey who's riding it. We have all seen the fatal results that have come from guys flying beyond their skill level party due to a misguided belief in their ships performance and/or their ships electronics (glide computer, stall warning, anti-colision etc). I for one would like to never hear about another stall spin fatality or misjudged final glide with disasterous results. Needless accidents that many times have their root source in overdependance on performance both aerodynamic and electrical, both at the high and low end of the performance envelope.

Good one Kirk, I better sign my posts from now on as;
Dan a "dilusional" retro glider driver LOL Have safe flying and fast times up there buddy, I wish I was flying now instead of wasting time with these posts lol.
Dan

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 8:56:45 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Kirk, lets not go to extremes to prove a point. Please forgive me if I appear to have gone that path on occassion. But I think everyone, EVERYONE will agree that an audio vario is an essential item when a guy is gonna be flying in gaggles etc. we have beat this horse to death on other threads. The datruth guy I would assume agrees. But other items, not so much.

Well, going to extremes to prove a point is what the interweb and RAS is all about, isn't it?

Seriously, I disagree that EVERYONE agrees about something as simple as an audio vario - if so why does anyone even buy a mechanical vario? My backup has audio and a redundant power supply - but I bet in the US most club ships don't even have an audio vario - and in our club, most of the members don't even know how to use the ones we have installed! And don't get me started on something as basic as using a radio in the pattern!

If I had a choice between a "modern" sailplane and the present state of "modern" soaring airmanship skills, or flying what you call a "retro" sailplane along with the skills most old "retro" glider flyers used to have, I will choose the old school approach every time. Old guys for the most part have been there done that enough to learn how to stay alive, and that survival is only partly enhanced by modernality.

As I said, retro is cool, and with the requisite skills can be fun and relatively safe, but as safe as a modern glider (safety cockpit, benign stall, etc.) with modern electronics? I guess it really depends on your definition of "Safe" and risk tolerance. I'm totally with you on the most important safety feature is the pilots attitude and skills; but I also like to have technology on my side; for example, I carry a Zaon PCAS in every towplane or glider I fly in because it's cheap insurance against being centerpunched from behind by some bozo in his Cirrus staring at his fancy glass cockpit. But I'm the only towpilot in my club (or even pilot in my club) who has one - most don't even know what it is!

There is great danger when money can purchase ships and systems that perform miles beyond the skill level of the jockey who's riding it. We have all seen the fatal results that have come from guys flying beyond their skill level party due to a misguided belief in their ships performance and/or their ships electronics (glide computer, stall warning, anti-colision etc). I for one would like to never hear about another stall spin fatality or misjudged final glide with disasterous results. Needless accidents that many times have their root source in overdependance on performance both aerodynamic and electrical, both at the high and low end of the performance envelope.

As we used to say in the Air Force, "Hamburger in any wrapper is still hamburger". A pilot with weak skills can kill himself in any glider; I seriously doubt the toys in his cockpit would be a big factor (at least he probably won't be lost when he crashes...). Newer ships are arguably easier to rig and fly than older ones - notice the reduction of crashes due to disconnected controls over the years - but our training system is still geared to turning out a pilot who can (just barely) takeoff, stay somewhere behind the towplane, do some turns and stalls, find the airfield, and land about where he wants, in a low performance glider like a 2-33 or Blanik. After that, he is on his own in most places. That's the problem, IMO. You fly for a living - that translates into currency. Many (most?) glider pilots do it as a hobby, and are often woefully out of practice most of the time. And we are surprised when they screw the pooch and buy the farm? I'm not.

Kirk
66

Hmm, can you provide an example of even one accident which was the result of using electronics like GPS, SPOT, or Flarm?
On the other hand there were at least one pilot who was rescued thanks to spot few years ago, and clear statistics showing significant reduction in mid airs thanks to flarm. How can anyone argue against these is beyond me. If you can afford a parachute you can afford those gadgets.

Ramy

Heres a few off the top of my head:

2015- two fatal accidents last year, one CA, one MS both involving distractions due to guys playing with their gps, both involving dusting activities in highly complex aircraft. We have had at least one fatal accident and scores of injury accidents each year due to electronics induced inattention for the past 6 years.

Heres another I was present to witness:
2000- DG100, guy spun in after release from abnormal tow, tow plane balooned up in a steep climb upon take off, glider guy released but spun, the guy survived but with back injuries, first words out of the guys mouth (i was the first on the scene), "I thought my stall warning would let me know"

Do you need more? Its endless within the power side of aviation and mostlikely more prevelent than we realize or than reported in the soaring side. The accident statistics are showing that the entire light aviation community is becoming dependant upon instrumentation to save their asses while never learning how to actually FLY the bird! (I am not talking IFR here) Example, stall spin, after 100 years of aviation and tecno improvement, still the killer of scores of aviators yearly inspite of stall warning instrumentation of various types (AOA etc).

Its time to quit the blanket statements. Electronics are fine, fill your bird to the max if you want, and continue to live in a false sense of security. I have gismos, dang near the same as you Ramy including computers, a spot and a transponder going in this fall, I use them, but dont call me or anyone who isnt equiped with all what you think they need ignorant or irresponsible.

Its a miracle that we had any competitions at all in the 60's and 70's, its a wonder we were not all lost, wandering in the desert, or dead from midairs. My oh my how did we find our way around, not run into anybody, and get reunited with our crews? Its a friggen miracle!! Maybe We should have told AJ and Dick, and Ray, and Al to just wait till 2016 when they would be safer.

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 2:29:41 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Heres a few off the top of my head:

2015- two fatal accidents last year, one CA, one MS both involving distractions due to guys playing with their gps, both involving dusting activities in highly complex aircraft. We have had at least one fatal accident and scores of injury accidents each year due to electronics induced inattention for the past 6 years.

And how is that different from accidents caused by getting lost when all you have is an outdated sectional and a whiskey compass? Or not understanding how to use a VOR and getting lost? Technology is technology - a sectional is technology, just like a GPS - and if used incorrectly can kill you. By your logic, the GA accident rate should be going up - but it is going down, despite all the fancy distracting gizmos in the cockpit and lousy pilots!


Heres another I was present to witness:
2000- DG100, guy spun in after release from abnormal tow, tow plane balooned up in a steep climb upon take off, glider guy released but spun, the guy survived but with back injuries, first words out of the guys mouth (i was the first on the scene), "I thought my stall warning would let me know"

Stall warning is hardly a fancy bit of electronics, power planes have had them for years. Was this a recent power conversion? Otherwise, it was just poor flying. Hardly a reason to yank stall warning systems out of all planes!


Do you need more? Its endless within the power side of aviation and mostlikely more prevelent than we realize or than reported in the soaring side. The accident statistics are showing that the entire light aviation community is becoming dependant upon instrumentation to save their asses while never learning how to actually FLY the bird! (I am not talking IFR here) Example, stall spin, after 100 years of aviation and tecno improvement, still the killer of scores of aviators yearly inspite of stall warning instrumentation of various types (AOA etc).

Again, statistics do NOT support your point of view. Sure, people crash while looking at their GPS - but people used to fly into mountains because they didn't know where they were at night, too! That stinkin' GPS has probably saved way more lives than it has killed!


Its time to quit the blanket statements. Electronics are fine, fill your bird to the max if you want, and continue to live in a false sense of security. I have gismos, dang near the same as you Ramy including computers, a spot and a transponder going in this fall, I use them, but dont call me or anyone who isnt equiped with all what you think they need ignorant or irresponsible.

Seems like it was the "Don't need no stinkin' tracker" voices that started with the blanket statements. Again, it's all about a pilots individual comfort, skill, and willingness to accept risk (however you define it). I use a Spot because my wife likes to know where I am, and it makes retrieves easier. Do I need it? No, but Happy Wife equals Happy Life, as the jewelry store billboard on I-70 assures me every day... And in some situations, flying "commando" IS ignorant and irresponsible, such as near Reno without a transponder, or in a race without Flarm and a tracker.


Its a miracle that we had any competitions at all in the 60's and 70's, its a wonder we were not all lost, wandering in the desert, or dead from midairs. My oh my how did we find our way around, not run into anybody, and get reunited with our crews? Its a friggen miracle!! Maybe We should have told AJ and Dick, and Ray, and Al to just wait till 2016 when they would be safer.

Yeah, and you know what, back then guys got lost, died in midairs, and wandered around the desert after landouts for hours trying to reunite with their crews. Good luck turning that clock back! And yes, contests were bigger back then...

Doesn't progress suck? We should all be driving cars with no seat belts, drum brakes, and hand crank windows... they sure were safer back then! Oh, wait, I used to drive one of them (65 beetle) and loved it!!

Cheers,

Kirk
66

How on earth did lack of piloting skills get annexed to having a well equipped cockpit. They are separate events without a causal link. Virtually all glider pilots learn in gliders not fitted with GPS nor electronic audio varios. The march of technology has made the sport safer, radios, audio various, transponders, Flarm, GPS, spot... These have nothing to due with learning the basics of stick and rudder. If you can afford the latest, great. If you can't still good. We have several local 1-26 guys whom fly amazing distances, and we have glass guys from early glass to the latest glass flying amazing flights. All of them can fly and it doesn't matter what instruments they use. However, they all must have a spot or inreach to leave the local area, this is required from the FBO.

If someone is giving you grief, it is more about them than you. As far as the march of technology making lesser pilots, I have not witnessed this at the glider port, but multiple accidents and incidents of Air-carriers has shown this. Again this is more training and experience than instruments. I am thinking of Airfrance held aircraft in deep stall for over 3 minutes, Korean Air, couldn't even follow a VASI, recent asian air another stall from altitude, cargo carrier out of SF where the 747 lost two engines on one side, long haul pilot forgot he had rudders...

All the glider pilots I know can fly, navigate and communicate. The modern stuff is nice and I believe leads to less head down time in cockpit, folding a map, looking up freqs, ...

With no offense intended to any of the posters, but this thread has gotten senseless. If you fly without any electronics fine, but know that spot and Inreach are required in some places and are just a good idea period. So are Transponders and Flarm. I couldn't care less if you navigate by GPS, this has no effect on me.

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 2:38:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
but I am in more danger driving to the gliderport than I am when I fly xc.

Really? I started hang gliders flying in the mid '70's and sailplanes in the late '80's. In that time I know 1 (one) person who died driving to or from the airport or flying site. (He was drunk.) The people I know that died while flying are too many to remember off the top of my head.
Steve

Thanks for the reply s. As to hang gliding, you couldnt pay me a fortune to get into anything that depends on weight shift for control. That trully is flirting with disaster. As for sailplane flying, it is just like agricultural flying, they are both only as dangerous as you want to make them. Idiocy or arrogance (knowingly exceeding your skill level) will kill a guy in any endevor irregardless of his equipment list.

On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 8:15:51 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Thanks for the reply s. As to hang gliding, you couldnt pay me a fortune to get into anything that depends on weight shift for control. That trully is flirting with disaster. As for sailplane flying, it is just like agricultural flying, they are both only as dangerous as you want to make them. Idiocy or arrogance (knowingly exceeding your skill level) will kill a guy in any endevor irregardless of his equipment list.

You made the bogus claim that driving to the gliderport is more dangerous than flying XC. Please tell us all the pilots you know that had accidents driving to or from the gliderport Vs all the pilots that had accidents flying.