Keeping Me Out of Your Warbird?

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques wrote:

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?

What about current military aircraft?

In theory it could be done, but the pilot doing it would have to be REAL
good! :-)) Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly
the
airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft
specific
also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
cockpit....probably in the dark .
A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but
the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

I was hoping you or Vlado would comment.

Well I'll take your word for it. But I recall an American pilot shot
down in Europe during WWII stealing a FW 190 (IIRC). He got the thing
started and into the air (in the dark), but flew it back to England with
the gear down since he couldn't figure out how to raise it.

Is basic flying of a WWII aircraft *really* that much more difficult than
a Cessna 152? We're not talking about doing loops, barrel rolls and split
S's. Just run the plane back to my secret hideout where I'll only look
and
admire it as *my own*, as if a piece of art!

A lot of the guys have a padlock setup on their canopies or doors in the
case of multi-engine stuff. Some aircraft canopy design allows for a
hole in
the canopy track you can padlock. I never used one. Security was usually
supplied for me/ and/or the airplane was inside all the time.

But figure an aircraft worth $1 million plus, and airport security that
could not be more competent than a Nazi LW base during wartime! Seems
the opportunity for lifting one of these aircraft wouldn't be too
challenging.
As you point out, flying it, might be a bit different.

Still, you spend $1 million for your P-51, or, like Glacier Girl,
something
like $4 million on the restoration, seems adding an ignition key to start
the thing wouldn't be too prohibitive (although you might lose the "Most
Faithful Restoration" Award as a result).

Generally, the feeling in the warbird community when I was active was
that
with normal security, you really didn't spend all that much time
worrying
about someone stealing the airplane.

I think aircraft theft in general is rather rare. But still, we're
talking
about millions of dollars of value here.

There have been cases in the military of enlisted people "borrowing" an
aircraft for a joyride. I remember one incident back in the fifties when
a
crew chief was taxi testing an F86D and decided on the spot to fly it.
They
got him back down somehow and promptly arrested him. Some other idiot
"stole
a B25 down at Keesler and got it into the air somehow. He lost an
engine,
then tried a turn into his dead left engine at about 100kts. Needless to
say, he morted as the airplane went into the gulf off the beach at
Biloxi.
Bottom line....it's possible......but considering the fact that the
pilot
would first have to be current in type and motovated to steal the
airplane;
the available window for potential would be theives is quite small I
would
imagine.

I suppose so. You could never fly it safely on your own after you
successfully stole it, since there aren't that many, and the sudden
appearance of a newly painted P-51 (and even more so the more rare
P-39, P-40 or P-38) would no doubt raise suspicions.

The thief would have to be the type that just wanted to possess something
rare and beautiful for himself, like a piece of art, where he gained
pleasure and satisfaction just looking at it (as opposed to spending
a bundle on insurance, oil, gas and maintenance per hour of operation).

I guess having a P-38 painted up with "Glacier Girl" in my yard as a lawn
ornament would probably attract attention.

Well there are lots of F-16's around! Could I grab one of those without
too much problem?




Well, keep in mind that the guy who stole the 190 was current in hot props,
and who knows about the light situation. It's definitely doable by someone
like this, especially if the guy had some science background that included
using the metric system. At least he could put 2x2 together and guess at the
rest. I would say however, that this 190 guy had to be a fairly good stick,
and probably had at least some inkling of what he was doing to be able to
start the airplane. Once started, he would have been fairly at home with
basically what to do to handle it.
As for the average Cessna driver climbing into either Vlado's or my 51 and
making off with it; I don't know what Vlado would say to this, but my guess
would be a mort on takeoff, if he could even get it started! Cranking a 51
can get a bit hairy if you don't know what you're doing. The big radials,
like a 2800 or even worse a 3350 can be a nightmare fire hazard if you're
not careful, even for the "more experienced" among us!! :-))
For the the fast jets, as Ed and some others have already mentioned, they're
not all that difficult to fly, but for someone trying to steal one, it would
be a systems nightmare for the thief even if external power was available.
The thing with jets is that they are extremely prestart and start checklist
sequence oriented, and not knowing what has to be thrown at what time and
within what parameters during the start sequence would REALLY foul up a
beginner!! In the T38 for example, you just basically push the start
buttons......but it's strongly suggested that you push them at the right
time!!!!! I'm guessing a hot start if anything at all in some of these fast
jets, or an engine fire. Also, assuming the idiot got it started, and just
going through an engine start checklist in my head for the Viper, I can't
imagine anyone pulling this off......God....JFS......switch
positioning......throttle positioning......getting essential systems on line
in proper sequence.....perhaps a Chimpanzee with an unlimited life span
trying everything possible might pull it off in ten million years if the
external power unit held out that long without overheating
:-)))))........but a thief in the night who's never been in the bird
before..................I don't know Stephen..........:-)))
I do understand your 190 guy though. With his prior experience in prop
fighters and his extreme motivation, it works for me. In fact, if it had
been me, I'm fairly certain I could have pulled it off myself, or at least I
would have tried anyway :-)))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Sure! Just jump in a Corsair, start 'er up, get 'er going down the runway
and then shove the throttle all the way forward. You'll never forget that
ride down the runway on your back.

A military prop fighter is more difficult to fly safely than is even a
modern jet fighter.

WDA

end

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Looking over recent photos of the P-38 "Glacier Girl", and reading
all ($$$) that was involved in its restoration, I was wondering...

What's stopping me from laying low during the next air show
and in the early hours of the morning, climbing into the cockpit
of my favorite warbird, and flying it off to my secret hideaway
runway and storage facility where I also keep my illicitly gained
Rembrandts, Van Goghs and pre-Columbian Indian art?

I have read of some British and American pilots, shot down over
Nazi occupied Europe, stealing LW aircraft to make their escapes.
Obviously no "keys" required for startup.

Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?

What about current military aircraft?


SMH

Stephen Harding wrote in message news:40279357@news- What's stopping me from laying low during the next air show
and in the early hours of the morning, climbing into the cockpit
of my favorite warbird, and flying it off to my secret hideaway
runway and storage facility where I also keep my illicitly gained
Rembrandts, Van Goghs and pre-Columbian Indian art?

Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?


For many years in the 90's Amarillo Texas had a yearly airshow. My partner and
I took vacation to cover the close to AM security shift to :
A. see the planes up close!
B. The local Warbird museum got a fed grant based on hours donated to the cause.
Over the years lots of "lookie lousers" came out a 2 AM for a looksee and many
went to jail for unrelated matters. (Warrants, Dope, Liquer ect)

The T birds did require a 24 Hr armed guard as part of the deal so we talked
a third guy into covering that and all swapped out every coulpla hrs.

This was pre 9-11 so I'm positive it's even tighter now.

Gerry
A Campus Cop in Texas

"John S. Shinal" wrote in message
...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but
the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

"All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
AAAGH ! The gust locks !"

PRANG ! Boom.

Actually..... saw a guy do something almost as bad once. He had a Tri-Pacer.
We were all watching through the window of the flight office as he taxied
out with a rather large concrete block trailing along behind him tied to his
tail. We yelled at him on the radio, but naturally he didn't have THAT on!!!
So we all climbed on the field pickup truck and raced across the field after
him. We caught up to him while he was doing his runup. To this day, when
some of us get together and remember this, we bust out laughing thinking
what must have been going through his mind when he saw about fifteen people
hanging onto a bouncing pickup truck coming directly at him shouting and
waving like a bunch of banshees!!
He told us he nearly **** a brick!!! THAT REALLY broke us up!!!!!
:-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

"Dudley Henriques" wrote
A lot of the guys have a padlock setup on their canopies or doors in the
case of multi-engine stuff. Some aircraft canopy design allows for a hole in
the canopy track you can padlock.

Well... this ain't exactly an example of a "discreet" place to put a
padlock, but anyway... :-)

http://www.aviacaomilitar.com.br/webkits/padlock.jpg

That's P-47D-40-RA n° 45-49151, preserved at the Museu Aeroespacial,
Rio de Janeiro, here in Brazil. And yes, that's me in the cockpit...

Vicente

"W. D. Allen Sr." wrote in message
news
Sure! Just jump in a Corsair, start 'er up, get 'er going down the runway
and then shove the throttle all the way forward. You'll never forget that
ride down the runway on your back.

Yeah.......pushing that mixture RICH like they do in that 150 ought to make
for an exciting start with that 2800!!!! :-)))

A military prop fighter is more difficult to fly safely than is even a
modern jet fighter.

As Moses said holding up the ten commandments of which this could easily
have been the first........
"Behold..........behold the word of GOD!!! :-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

"Vicente Vazquez" wrote in message
om...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote
A lot of the guys have a padlock setup on their canopies or doors in the
case of multi-engine stuff. Some aircraft canopy design allows for a
hole in
the canopy track you can padlock.

Well... this ain't exactly an example of a "discreet" place to put a
padlock, but anyway... :-)

http://www.aviacaomilitar.com.br/webkits/padlock.jpg

That's P-47D-40-RA n° 45-49151, preserved at the Museu Aeroespacial,
Rio de Janeiro, here in Brazil. And yes, that's me in the cockpit...

Vicente

Hi Vicente;

That's a great shot, and a great airplane. That padlock would be one of the
ways to secure the canopy on a 47; that's for sure!
My friend Vlado Lenoch has recently just flown a beautifully restored Jug (a
D.. I believe). There aren't too many left out there. This one looks like it
will be a great restoration when finished.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:29:43 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:


"John S. Shinal" wrote in message
...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but
the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

"All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
AAAGH ! The gust locks !"

PRANG ! Boom.

Actually..... saw a guy do something almost as bad once. He had a Tri-Pacer.
We were all watching through the window of the flight office as he taxied
out with a rather large concrete block trailing along behind him tied to his
tail. We yelled at him on the radio, but naturally he didn't have THAT on!!!
So we all climbed on the field pickup truck and raced across the field after
him. We caught up to him while he was doing his runup. To this day, when
some of us get together and remember this, we bust out laughing thinking
what must have been going through his mind when he saw about fifteen people
hanging onto a bouncing pickup truck coming directly at him shouting and
waving like a bunch of banshees!!
He told us he nearly **** a brick!!! THAT REALLY broke us up!!!!!
:-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Didn't see it myself, but friends who did swear it is true. A locally
(to me) based Cherokee successfully took off with a 5-gallon bucket
full of concrete still tied to the wing tie-down. Upon landing, the
bucket flailed around and damaged the underside of the wing and flap.

I actually did catch a student taxiing out (with instructor) one day
with the rudder gust-lock still installed (this was on a C-172 as I
recall).

Two of us sitting in the office saw it at the same time, and we both
bolted out the door running after the taxiing 172. We did catch it,
and pounded on the sides of the doors to get their attention and
to get them to stop. The looks on their faces (before & after they
realized the gust-lock was still in place) were priceless!

Bela P. Havasreti

"John S. Shinal" wrote:

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

"All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
AAAGH ! The gust locks !"

PRANG ! Boom.

IIRC:
Is'nt that what caused the crash of the Evansville IN team DC-3
years ago. Crew forgot to remove the gust locks ?

1977, Dec 13 DC-3 Crashed after takeoff at Evansville, Indiana, USA
when a National Jet Services DC-3 crashed
during takeoff in Evansville, Ind., killing all
29 people on board, including the entire
14-member Evansville basketball team and
their coach, Bobby Watson.

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?

But figure an aircraft worth $1 million plus, and airport security that
could not be more competent than a Nazi LW base during wartime! Seems
the opportunity for lifting one of these aircraft wouldn't be too
challenging.
As you point out, flying it, might be a bit different.

Generally, the feeling in the warbird community when I was active was
that
with normal security, you really didn't spend all that much time
worrying
about someone stealing the airplane.

Of course, you don't necessarily have to fly the aircraft away to steal it;
I recall an article in a UK aviation magazine a couple of years ago
interviewing a warbird owner (IIRC a Spitfire).
He had arranged to go away on business for a couple of days, but cancelled
at the last minute. On visiting the hangar where his aircraft was stored, he
was rather concerned to find it being loaded onto a lorry (I think the
aircraft had the wings removed at the time). A timely call to the local
police soon saw the thieves quickly under arrest, but I believe the owner
was a bit worried over the relative ease at which the aircraft could have
been stolen.I think the article mentioned that it was an inside job, with
one of the employees on the airfield tipping off the would-be thieves when a
suitable opportunity arose.

Jon.