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#11
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"Clark" wrote in message .. . (BUFDRVR) wrote in : Bill Phillips wrote: The AK fires the 7.62mm x 39 which is much less powerful that the 7.62mm x 51 used in the M14. OK, I've never understood the x 39 or x 51. What do these numbers refer to? Cartridge dimension (hint: its not diameter) So as not to get hit for a non-aviation post; what color is your favorite aircraft? ummm, low vis grey? I actually prefer the old off white gloss paint jobs. It was much easuer to clean on wash day. |
#12
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snip
I actually prefer the old off white gloss paint jobs. It was much easuer to clean on wash day. I meant to say easier |
#13
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#14
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UHHH... Robert, BUFFDRVR, everyone...
Firstly, this is a interesting subject, but should be noted off-topic. I might be lengthy, but I hope that is worth of reading. This is a view of a first-time AK user, plus some comments and observations. The friend of mine, former US Army-I don't know which branch, the one that is jumping from Hercules with oxygen bottles and parafoil-back in the 80's he was in Afghanistan equipping Mujahedins with donkey-mounted howitzers (yeah, I know what you are thinking. I didn't believe it either until I've seen the pictures of such all-terain self-propelled howitzers and had a good belly laugh). A subdued comment on the personal weapons issue in Afghanistan-was "When you are in Rome...". M-16 vs AK-47 (and subversions): M-16 is more complicated and more prone to jamming. Nevertheless, it provides beter accuracy. As for the calibre, the 7.62 puts more energy onto the target than 5.56, but if you want somebody dead, 5.56 is better. 7.62 is a "human" round-it goes straight through the flesh, smashing bones on its way. 5.56, due to its low weight and energy dissipation, tumbles and "wonders around" (I don't want to go into gruelsome details) even at zero distance. I remember two cases; one attempted suicide in the chest with M-70 resulted, basically, in two holes-in&out (a wanabee dead got out without any damage to major organs). OTOH, a 5.56 round fired from a M-16 derivative acidentally fired in the back of a fellow comrade resulted in fatal injuries; the bullet never left the body but smashed everything inside. But the best example is a Soviet "TT" pistol that is a copy of the famous Colt 45 chambered for 7.62 mm bullet. Well, that 7.62 bullet is FMJ and the round looks more like a mongrel between pistol and rilfe bullet! TT puts more energy in Joules on a target than any mass-produced pistol/revolver in service or use (including famous 44 magnum!), but its real effect is much lower because the reasons above-its cumulative effect is low. But if you load it with 7.63 Mauser that perfectly fits TT (hollow point, lower velocity) you make a havoc. As for replacing M-16 with AK-47 in Iraq (or anywhere), Robert, you would soon become a permanent resident in Ft. Leavenworth. If you try to make a point, make it from user's view. If I were given an option to have the AK-47 beside "my" M-16, the answer is simple-I don't have to fiddle much about it, I would keep my primary gun clean and tidy while I can treat an AK-47 as a "whore". Or, if you want to believe in conspiracy theories, nobody is counting your rounds nor the AK can be traced back to you if you whack someone by accident... or purpose. You might note that Israelis have a sort of AK-47 copy (5.56mm Galil) but they are not grabbing AK-47s. Basically, it is a legally-obtained ILLEGAL weapon. And Stg 44 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with AK-47 but the basic layout and that is gas-operated. It was one of the German "wunderweapons" that could fail if there was a slightest difference in the round shape or powder load; its loading system is completely different; trigger and auto/semiauto assembly is completely different; its ejection system is completely different. Actually, you could find more similarities between Smeisherr and British Mark Sten. I have handled and been trained to Yugoslav version of AK-47 called M-70 as well as for "improved maintenace" of it. Generally, you disassemble 3 (or so) more parts then usual and learn some peculiarities. I had a wooden-stock earlier version (it was A1, A2, AB1, AB2 or something like that, it was 16 years ago, and since I did not participate in the war I do not remember, but I remember some details that are uncommon). No maintenace difference, everything interchangeable between versions, barrel fatigue factor 7 (i.e. good, I -think- it was on the 10-5 scale). It was 1989, the rifle was over ten years old. Yu-version is improved with over-calibre grenade sight (you lift it, it closes the gas chamber thus disabling the gas-operation- manually work the bolt to load a chamber from a magazine, aim it like RPG) and accompanying bolt-on-barrel launcher/ "special" rounds. Like AKM-47 (a more modern, simplified version of AK-47 with forged instead machined frame), it goes with bolt-on-muzzle compensator that comes as a standard equipment that needs to be unscrewed before mounting of the launcher barrel protrusion. Fold and wooden stock versions available. Foldable luminiscent nightsights. We were thought that M-70 is the finest from the AK-47 family. It also comes in machinegun version called M-72 with longer barrel, mouth compensator and grenade sight deleted and with optional 50 round drum magazine (rarely used). All parts Interchangeable with M-70. My "impressions" from live round training-prone position, semiauto/auto. - Recoil is low to medium. It is quite comfortable, really. Other guys with folding stock versions were slightly less comfortable. Recoil goes straight up and is controlable, thanks to the compensator. M-72 guys expirienced some yaw recoil, but they were not allowed to use semi-auto on their guns (go figure!). - For me, it was possible to put all rounds (five of them) in 35 cm circle after my second try, semiauto (100m, I think). The sights were unadjusted (it went low/right) but we were not allowed to tamper with them, so I aimed left/higher. I got two bullseyes. - In full auto, we were supposed to hit chest targets with three-four round bursts. I found it quite easy to control it after a second burst. Just a quick squirt and three are on their way. My third burst got it down. Since in Yu army you were supposed to get all targets down (you would get "Not all targets are down!" yell and you knew what to do), we went spraying. Well, then you discover that you are not going anywhere if you keep it longer then four rounds burst and that is a waste of ammo. As for my markmanship, I had some experience with pellet and bolt-action 22 LR. While in high-school, I have also fired 7.9mm M-48 bolt-action rifle (that's the very same bullet the Bf-109E machineguns had, and we called a rifle a "donkey" since it was punching on both sides!). Anyway, I was mediocre at best. -Maintenace. Well, to tell you the truth, an idiot can take care of it. You clean the muzzle, gas chamber, bolt piston, receiver (?) and that's about it. We had a gunsmith on the field and we picked a trick how to clean the piston (that had some residues on it); stick in the ground, rotate, oil, wipe. He also told us that M-70/AK-47 "likes" a just a drop of fine gun oil in the barrel prior to firing/storing. Yes, we asked him about dust and sand but he said not to worry, that it keeps the barrel from fatigue on a limited "live" firing since you fire quite a lot black-powder filled practice rounds on the tactical excercise and it is not bad for storing, although officers hate to see it-but it is better to get verbally bashed over oily barrel than be reprimanded for reducing the barrel condition. Since he was making and modifying weapons at home, we trusted him. Overall, the M-70 has a very steep learning curve and it is "timid". Simple and literally jam-free. If you need a automatic rifle, and you need it NOW, I cannot imagine anything better then AK. Yet another Yu-version was developed-a sniper rifle-7.9mm semiautomatic but I don't know the particulars. And hunting version, too. And machinegun version. And close-combat version. Where to get an M-70? )) Well, before the Yu-war, Yugoslavia was covertly exporting M-70s to Iraq among other weapons. If you try to get it at the source, it cannot be "demilitarized" in any country of former Yugoslavia as it is exclusively a combat weapon. Yu-war experience: From what I've heard from the both sides, Romanian version is awful, no precission or accuracy. Poor steel, heats a lot so it was causing burns. Note that former M70 users, all sides, were used to a longer left-hand underbarrel grip thanks to launcher sight so one coud adjust it more comfortably-Romanian version has a -pistol- left-hand grip but a habit is a habit. Anyway, it was considered to be a piece of garbage and was only good for overhead spraying from the trench. It was generally discarded if better AK or M-70 was captured. During the war, many AKs came from Hungary, but I am not sure if they were Hungarian (if there was a Hungarian production) or Russian production. They were reportedly considered allright and from what I see it still makes a bulk in Croatian Army. Serbia and Montenegro exclusively use M-70 subtypes since the production is there. You can put two 30 round magazines together (over/under) with a duct tape, stab the one with rounds down in the dirt, rotate it to reload and it would work every time! Some M-16 derivatives were used by Croatian Army in the first stages of war (as the weapons were procured through various sources) but was not widely adopted even when CA was able to purchase it (late in the war). Sorry for being overly long-I had nothing else to do! Nele NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA Regnirps wrote in message ... (BUFDRVR) wrote: I think pretty much *everyone* says a 7.62 has better "knockdown" power than 5.56. Certainly true for M14s. I'll take 180 grains at 2800 fps over 55 at 3200 any day. (unless you want to eat the rabbit). -- Charlie Springer |
#15
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In message , Nele VII
writes snip The friend of mine, former US Army-I don't know which branch, the one that is jumping from Hercules with oxygen bottles and parafoil-back in the 80's he was in Afghanistan equipping Mujahedins with donkey-mounted howitzers (yeah, I know what you are thinking. I didn't believe it either until I've seen the pictures of such all-terain self-propelled howitzers and had a good belly laugh). Google for 'screw-guns' and 'British Army in India' preWW I Mike -- M.J.Powell |
#16
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"M. J. Powell" wrote:
In message , Nele VII writes snip The friend of mine, former US Army-I don't know which branch, the one that is jumping from Hercules with oxygen bottles and parafoil-back in the 80's he was in Afghanistan equipping Mujahedins with donkey-mounted howitzers (yeah, I know what you are thinking. I didn't believe it either until I've seen the pictures of such all-terain self-propelled howitzers and had a good belly laugh). Google for 'screw-guns' and 'British Army in India' preWW I Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin' cool, I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule, With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets -- 'Tss! 'Tss! For you all love the screw-guns -- the screw-guns they all love you,.... -- Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) |
#17
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"M. J. Powell" wrote in message ... In message , Nele VII writes snip The friend of mine, former US Army-I don't know which branch, the one that is jumping from Hercules with oxygen bottles and parafoil-back in the 80's he was in Afghanistan equipping Mujahedins with donkey-mounted howitzers (yeah, I know what you are thinking. I didn't believe it either until I've seen the pictures of such all-terain self-propelled howitzers and had a good belly laugh). Google for 'screw-guns' and 'British Army in India' preWW I Mike You dont need to go that far back, pack howitzers were issued to US and British forces in WW2 and hauled by mules http://community-2.webtv.net/msn.com...601stFABnPack/ Keith |
#18
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Keith Willshaw wrote:
"M. J. Powell" wrote in message ... In message , Nele VII writes snip The friend of mine, former US Army-I don't know which branch, the one that is jumping from Hercules with oxygen bottles and parafoil-back in the 80's he was in Afghanistan equipping Mujahedins with donkey-mounted howitzers (yeah, I know what you are thinking. I didn't believe it either until I've seen the pictures of such all-terain self-propelled howitzers and had a good belly laugh). Google for 'screw-guns' and 'British Army in India' preWW I Mike You dont need to go that far back, pack howitzers were issued to US and British forces in WW2 and hauled by mules http://community-2.webtv.net/msn.com...601stFABnPack/ First Airborne Battery, RCA, was training for jungle ops in the 1970 with their L5s broken down and hauled by 13 mules each. -- Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) |
#19
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If you think momentum is an effective measure of stopping power then throw
rocks; they have more of it. Most people use energy as a first approximation, with bullet design just as important but harder to assess. this gives: 5.56mm x 45, 1798 J 7.62mm x 39, 1993 J 7.62mm x 51, 3276 J Regarding personal use; I chose the 5.56mm x 45 because it is much more controlable that the 7.62mm x 39, probably becase less momentum equals less recoil. With an AK-47/AKM only the first round of a burst has any real chance of a hit, the rest go over the top, the AK-74 seems to have solved this with its 5.45mm x 39.5 round and a muzzle brake but I have not fired one enough to have a real oppinion. Given a head or torso hit either round will get the job done virtually every time. "Regnirps" wrote in message ... "Bill Phillips" wrote: The AK fires the 7.62mm x 39 which is much less powerful that the 7.62mm x 51 used in the M14. Lets rank them by momentum (in oddball units but it doesn't matter for comparison). .223 55gr at 3,100 fps -- 170,500 7.62x39 125gr at 2,200 fps -- 275,000 ( 1.6 times the .22) .308 150gr at 2,800 fps -- 420,000 ( 2.46 times the .22 and 1.53 times the Russian) I'll take the M14 any day, but I practive with one a lot (and I picked the high end. I have seen some NATO ball ammo at 2,300). Assuming they won't let you have one, which of the other two do you pick? -- Charlie Springer |
#20
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The X number refers to case length. There are several 7.62 diameter rounds
out there varying length. 30 carbine = 7.62 X 33, 30-06 = 7.62 X 63. The Russian equivilent to the 30-06 X 54R Thanks to all for the answer. I'm assuming the larger x number, the longer the case and the longer the case the greater the load of powder? BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
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