ATC User Fees

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Peter" wrote in message
...

Yes, it might be almost as complex as this post managing to find its way
through a network of thousands of computers without any central control.

I'm sure the system will immediately fall apart and you'll never see this
response.



How do the consequences of losing a message compare to the consequences of a
midair collision?

I expect one of the criteria before transitioning to a more distributed
computerized system of ATC would be that it would reduce the probability
of collisions. I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon.

"Peter" wrote in message
...

Same thing that happens now. If the runway isn't clear when he starts to
land then he does a go around and negotiates a new reservation slot in the
queue. If he's far enough back when the delay occurs then he slows or
does a 360. Certainly the algorithms would be different for ATC than
computer networks ('retransmit after collision' can work for packets but
isn't so good for aircraft), but I don't see it as inherently less
soluable.


What's the backup to the computer?

Larry Dighera wrote:

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:02:19 -0600, Newps wrote
in ::


The aircraft on takeoff roll has to abort and as you
know there could be a million reasons for that. Perhaps it's a non
mechanical reason, and therefore not known by the computer, a deer ran
on to the runway. How does the aircraft on final know what to do? It
all has to be inputted into a computer immediately.


If the computer is aware of the position of the aircraft it is
controlling through GPS interrogation, RADAR/transponder, ADDS-B, or
..., it would be programmed to issue the appropriate instructions to
the aircraft. Beyond departure and destination information, little
else need be "inputted" into the computer.

The computer doesn't know that the aircraft aborted, only that it has
been released and will fly the computer assigned heading. It knows whre
the plane is but not why it isn't doing what it's supposed to.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:47:41 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
et::


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

If the computer is aware of the position of the aircraft it is
controlling through GPS interrogation, RADAR/transponder, ADDS-B, or
..., it would be programmed to issue the appropriate instructions to
the aircraft. Beyond departure and destination information, little
else need be "inputted" into the computer.


What's the backup to the computer?


So you agree that the information wouldn't need be "inputted" into the
computer?

Peter wrote:



Same thing that happens now. If the runway isn't clear when he starts to
land then he does a go around and negotiates a new reservation slot in
the queue.

So the pilot isn't busy enough and now has to be a controller?


If he's far enough back when the delay occurs then he slows
or does a 360.

No airplane on final in busy airspace does a 360. Ever.


Certainly the algorithms would be different for ATC than
computer networks ('retransmit after collision' can work for packets but
isn't so good for aircraft), but I don't see it as inherently less
soluable.

I said the computer could do it. The problem is the controller can do
it better. You cannot make a computer do what the controller does and
do it more efficiently. You will never remove the human.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

So you agree that the information wouldn't need be "inputted" into the
computer?


Of course, but the computer would certainly need input. A computer without
input is not particularly useful.

I think the idea is that the pilot, with sufficient information in a
sufficiently good display and interface, would be able to handle
separation (under IMC) as well as he could under VMC. If this is true
(and I'm not convinced that it is yet), then much of the need for the
IFR system would be eliminated.

I am aware that under high traffic conditions this breaks down (which is
presumably why we have alphabet airspace to begin with)

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Matt Barrow" writes:

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:2mqce.34479$r53.15777@attbi_s21...
To truly privatize it would require free market competition among
providers
of ATC services. That simply is not possible.

They used to say that the phone company or the utility companies needed to
be monopolies.

And, in fact, there is only *one* gas pipe, *one* water pipe, *one*
sewer pipe running down the street out front of my house. And only
*one* set of electrical wires in the neighborhood. And *one* set of
phone wires. And *one* set of cable company coax.

It's possible to multiplex services from different companies on them,
to some extent. It's not very meaningful for the water, phone,
electricity, or sewer; for the phone wires, also used for DSL, it
actually seems to work well to allow multiple ISPs to connect
through those lines. But tht's because it's a separate run from the
switching office to each house, whereas all the rest use shared
wiring/piping.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

"Peter" wrote in message
...

I expect one of the criteria before transitioning to a more distributed
computerized system of ATC would be that it would reduce the probability
of collisions. I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon.


So it's pretty much outside the scope of this discussion then.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:02:19 -0600, Newps wrote
in ::


The aircraft on takeoff roll has to abort and as you
know there could be a million reasons for that. Perhaps it's a non
mechanical reason, and therefore not known by the computer, a deer ran
on to the runway. How does the aircraft on final know what to do? It
all has to be inputted into a computer immediately.


If the computer is aware of the position of the aircraft it is
controlling through GPS interrogation, RADAR/transponder, ADDS-B, or
..., it would be programmed to issue the appropriate instructions to
the aircraft. Beyond departure and destination information, little
else need be "inputted" into the computer.

Your comment assumes that all unusual circumstances can be identified
in advance and therefore prepared for. Unfortunately we are past the
point where this is true.

Rich Lemert