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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 10th 10, 02:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Padraig[_2_]
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Posts: 7
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Hello,

I'm trying to figure out why the ILS or LOC Rwy 9 KJZI requires DME,
per the notes. Any ideas? I don't see where any of the fixes can't
be determined by dual VORs.

Thanks,
Padraig
  #2  
Old March 10th 10, 02:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Padraig[_2_]
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Posts: 7
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

On Mar 9, 8:31*pm, Padraig wrote:
Hello,

I'm trying to figure out why the ILS or LOC Rwy 9 KJZI requires DME,
per the notes. *Any ideas? *I don't see where any of the fixes can't
be determined by dual VORs.

Thanks,
Padraig


Sorry, here's the procedure.

http://tiles.skyvector.com/sky/files...f/05354IL9.PDF
  #3  
Old March 10th 10, 02:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
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Posts: 838
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

On Mar 9, 7:44*pm, Padraig wrote:
On Mar 9, 8:31*pm, Padraig wrote:

Hello,


I'm trying to figure out why the ILS or LOC Rwy 9 KJZI requires DME,
per the notes. *Any ideas? *I don't see where any of the fixes can't
be determined by dual VORs.


Thanks,
Padraig


Sorry, here's the procedure.

http://tiles.skyvector.com/sky/files...f/05354IL9.PDF


Appears to me that HUKAG (MAP) is not defined by a VOR radial causing
the need for DME from the outer marker to the middle marker.

That would be my guess.
  #4  
Old March 10th 10, 03:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Padraig[_2_]
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Posts: 7
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

But that is also defined by time from FAF for the LOC, right? The
owner of the aircraft I tend to rent doesn't pay to keep his GPS
database up to date, so /U doesn't work too well in a lot of places.

On Mar 9, 8:54*pm, " wrote:


Appears to me that HUKAG (MAP) is not defined by a VOR radial causing
the need for DME from the outer marker to the middle marker.

That would be my guess.


  #5  
Old March 10th 10, 05:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
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Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

On Mar 9, 8:54*pm, Padraig wrote:
But that is also defined by time from FAF for the LOC, right? *The
owner of the aircraft I tend to rent doesn't pay to keep his GPS
database up to date, so /U doesn't work too well in a lot of places.


I would think time would be part of it.

Good headwind down the ILS and your time now has changed since timing
is based on GS. Distance would be the constant that would confirm you
have reached the middle marker (along with the marker beacon) should
your actual time differ then what the chart projects on a no wind
situation.

ILS would be ground based, GPS would be informational only for DME
purposes. I would load the approach in the GPS and accept the warning
that it's for situational awareness as long as all the fixes matches
what I have on paper. This is how I would run my shop if I was to do
the approach.
  #6  
Old March 11th 10, 04:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Padraig[_2_]
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Posts: 7
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

On Mar 9, 11:11*pm, " wrote:
On Mar 9, 8:54*pm, Padraig wrote:

But that is also defined by time from FAF for the LOC, right? *The
owner of the aircraft I tend to rent doesn't pay to keep his GPS
database up to date, so /U doesn't work too well in a lot of places.


I would think time would be part of it.

Good headwind down the ILS and your time now has changed since timing
is based on GS. *Distance would be the constant that would confirm you
have reached the middle marker (along with the marker beacon) should
your actual time differ then what the chart projects on a no wind
situation.

ILS would be ground based, GPS would be informational only for DME
purposes. *I would load the approach in the GPS and accept the warning
that it's for situational awareness as long as all the fixes matches
what I have on paper. *This is how I would run my shop if I was to do
the approach.


Yes, the problem is technically speaking I can't accept the approach
since it requires DME and I don't have it. If I had a legal GPS
database, I could fly it legally. But either way, if I'm flying the
ILS approach, the DH is the missed approach point. Once I hit that
altitude and I'm on the glide slope, I'm at the MAP. So I don't need
timing at all for the ILS, just if I were doing the localizer.

Thanks,
Padraig.
  #7  
Old March 12th 10, 08:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Padraig wrote:

On Mar 9, 8:31 pm, Padraig wrote:

Hello,

I'm trying to figure out why the ILS or LOC Rwy 9 KJZI requires DME,
per the notes. Any ideas? I don't see where any of the fixes can't
be determined by dual VORs.

Thanks,
Padraig



Sorry, here's the procedure.

http://tiles.skyvector.com/sky/files...f/05354IL9.PDF


I got an answer from the friendlies. The ALD radial is restricted below
6,000, thus DME is mandatory for BASSO. I pointed out that charting the
ALD R-120 as part of the fix composition on the approach chart is
misleading.
  #8  
Old March 16th 10, 12:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Padraig[_2_]
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Posts: 7
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Gents,

Thanks for the responses. Sorry to have incited such an argument.

Sam, just curious, did you talk to FAA folks (friendlies, as you put
it)? Thanks for the info. Interesting. You're saying it's
misleading to show the 120R ADL versus just the CHS Radial and
Distance. I agree if that's what you're saying.

One of the big take-aways from this back-and-forth that surprised me
was that no one talked about Visual Descent Points (VDPs), charted or
otherwise. The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they
are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA
(assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA). In lieu of a
charted VDPs, make your own using the rule of 300 ft/nm descent rate.
So if your MDA takes you to 600 AGL, leave MDA 2.0NM before the runway
(again, assuming you're in a position to land and meet the reqs of
descending below MDA). I believe in part it's to keep a/c from
descending into the ground after the "DIVE/DRIVE" method and they
break out way before MAP (especially at night).

Airlines have redone a lot of their tactics on non-precision
approaches, and the whole dive/drive method is somewhat outdated.
It's preferred to have a fairly constant descent to MAP, just like an
ILS approach or LPV. Getting down to MDA early can be dangerous if
you have to drive for some distance before it's safe to descend to the
runway.

Anyway, thanks for the videos. It's good to see actual footage when
most of the time I'm stuck inside thinking about flying.

Last point. And I know the approach name doesn't call out ILS/DME,
but what the heck do I do if I go missed and have to fess up that I
don't have DME. I would imagine the FAA could come after me (in
theory) since it's required per the procedural note.

Thanks,
Padraig

On Mar 12, 3:46*pm, Sam Spade wrote:

I got an answer from the friendlies. *The ALD radial is restricted below
6,000, thus DME is mandatory for BASSO. *I pointed out that charting the
ALD R-120 as part of the fix composition on the approach chart is
misleading.


  #9  
Old March 16th 10, 02:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Bob Moore
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Posts: 291
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Padraig wrote
The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they
are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA
(assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA).


Nope!! As I pointed out to Atlieb, MDA has nothing to do with the MAP, the
VDP has nothing to do with the MAP except that it must be outside the MAP.

The following is the U.S. FAA's official definition of VDP:

"A defined point on the final approach course of a nonprecision straight-in
approach procedure from which normal descent from the MDA to the runway
touchdown point may be commenced, provided the approach threshold of that
runway, or approach lights, or other markings identifiable with the
approach end of that runway are clearly visible to the pilot."

Bob Moore
  #10  
Old March 17th 10, 11:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Padraig[_2_]
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Posts: 7
Default KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

Bob, sorry, substitute TDZ with MAP. My point is that generally a VDP
is measured from the end of the runway (beginning of TDZ) which is
often where the MAP is (on RNAV approaches).

Thanks.

On Mar 16, 9:20*am, Bob Moore wrote:
Padraig wrote

*The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they
are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA
(assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA).


Nope!! As I pointed out to Atlieb, MDA has nothing to do with the MAP, the
VDP has nothing to do with the MAP except that it must be outside the MAP..

The following is the U.S. FAA's official definition of VDP:

"A defined point on the final approach course of a nonprecision straight-in
approach procedure from which normal descent from the MDA to the runway
touchdown point may be commenced, provided the approach threshold of that
runway, or approach lights, or other markings identifiable with the
approach end of that runway are clearly visible to the pilot."

Bob Moore


 




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