russia vs. japan in 1941 [WAS: 50% of NAZI oil..]

The Black Monk wrote:

Instead, of course, Hitler's war was a
crusade only for his grotesque and evil ideology, as bad as if not
worse than the Bolshevism he fought.

There is simply no comparison between the explicit genocide
promulgated by the Nazi ideology and the de facto repressive
implementation of "communism" in the USSR. All this talk
about "famine holocausts" is nothing but revisionist and
Nazi apologist drivel especially considering that it originates
from areas that never suffered through any Soviet famine and
which actively supported Hitler during WWII.

From: kirill
Date: 10/21/2003 10:38 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:



The Black Monk wrote:

Instead, of course, Hitler's war was a
crusade only for his grotesque and evil ideology, as bad as if not
worse than the Bolshevism he fought.

There is simply no comparison between the explicit genocide
promulgated by the Nazi ideology and the de facto repressive
implementation of "communism" in the USSR. All this talk
about "famine holocausts" is nothing but revisionist and
Nazi apologist drivel especially considering that it originates
from areas that never suffered through any Soviet famine and
which actively supported Hitler during WWII.

Ok, the Nazis had a semi open program of mass murder (read leibensraum,
transportation to the occupied territories etc) and the Soviets had a secret
program. That does not change the fact that many millions of innocent civilions
were deliberately murdered in both cases. The Nazis only had 12 years vs. the
Lenin-Stalin period's 36. Stalin's gulags were in business before the Nazi
concentration camp system. The gulag system's goldmines gave the average inmate
a life expectansy of 30 days. Stalin starved to death many hundreds of
thousands of people in his collectivization program.Stalins purges killed
millions more. His program of random arrest and vanishings of millions of
people was at least as effective as Hitler's nacht und nebel programs .

Without minimizing Nazi atrocities the Soviets did far worse. Of course the
Soviet system of elimination of "enemies of the state" was simply carrying on
the tradition of the Tsars. Had the Nazis lasted as long as Stalin I would
guess they would have had numbers exceding the Soviet's.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

kirill wrote in message ...
The Black Monk wrote:

Instead, of course, Hitler's war was a
crusade only for his grotesque and evil ideology, as bad as if not
worse than the Bolshevism he fought.

There is simply no comparison between the explicit genocide
promulgated by the Nazi ideology and the de facto repressive
implementation of "communism" in the USSR.

Well, the Nazis were at least honest about their brutality. For the
millions who were sacrificed for the purpose of building the worker's
paradise it is small consolation that some of their murderers thought
that they were building a better world rather than just destroying
subhumans.

All this talk
about "famine holocausts" is nothing but revisionist and
Nazi apologist drivel especially considering that it originates
from areas that never suffered through any Soviet famine and
which actively supported Hitler during WWII.

I dispute the latter statements. OF course talk of the famine was
greatest in areas not under soviet control, where news was suppressed.
My grandfather and a few others - a small minority of people from
"velyka ukrainia" within the diaspora lived through the Famine, had
family that died during it. While obviously the post-Stalin USSR
could not be compared to Nazi Germany (though it was still worse than,
for example, Franco's Spain), Stalinism, and Pol Pot's communism were
not much different.

respectfully,

BM

(The Black Monk) wrote in message . com...
kirill wrote in message ...
The Black Monk wrote:



I dispute the latter statements. OF course talk of the famine was
greatest in areas not under soviet control, where news was suppressed.
My grandfather and a few others - a small minority of people from
"velyka ukrainia" within the diaspora lived through the Famine, had
family that died during it. While obviously the post-Stalin USSR
could not be compared to Nazi Germany (though it was still worse than,
for example, Franco's Spain), Stalinism, and Pol Pot's communism were
not much different.

respectfully,



You forgot to add one important detail that your grandpa is cretin.
But if he is cretin his tales are good only for residents of
cretin-houses. Don't forget to remind your grandpa the right address
where he can be understood the best.

Am 21 Oct 2003 16:09:53 -0700, schrieb (The
Black Monk) :

Unfortunately, rather than statesmen Germany was led by madmen.
Hitler's racial theories prevented him from making Germany a leader of
Europe in the manner that America would later be. As Spengler
predicted in 1936, Hitler's sick reich didn't last 10 years.


If Germany would have been lead by statesmen and not madmen it would
not have waged war, me thinks.


Owe
--
My from-adress is valid and being read.
www.owejessen.de

Owe Jessen wrote:

:Am 21 Oct 2003 16:09:53 -0700, schrieb (The
:Black Monk) :
:
:Unfortunately, rather than statesmen Germany was led by madmen.
:Hitler's racial theories prevented him from making Germany a leader of
:Europe in the manner that America would later be. As Spengler
:predicted in 1936, Hitler's sick reich didn't last 10 years.
:
:If Germany would have been lead by statesmen and not madmen it would
:not have waged war, me thinks.

And if Germany had been fairly treated by the victors of WWI, rather
than robbed blind, and hadn't had such sensible options as Anshluss
foreclosed, she might have been led by statesmen rather than madmen.


--
"Now this is the Law of the Jungle --
as old and as true as the sky;
And the Wolf that shall keep it may prosper,
but the Wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk
the Law runneth forward and back --
For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf,
and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."

-- "The Law of the Jungle", Rudyard Kipling

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
...
Owe Jessen wrote:

:Am 21 Oct 2003 16:09:53 -0700, schrieb (The
:Black Monk) :
:
:Unfortunately, rather than statesmen Germany was led by madmen.
:Hitler's racial theories prevented him from making Germany a leader of
:Europe in the manner that America would later be. As Spengler
:predicted in 1936, Hitler's sick reich didn't last 10 years.
:
:If Germany would have been lead by statesmen and not madmen it would
:not have waged war, me thinks.

And if Germany had been fairly treated by the victors of WWI, rather
than robbed blind, and hadn't had such sensible options as Anshluss
foreclosed, she might have been led by statesmen rather than madmen.

I think the meth-amphetamines would have still done their paranoid
schizoprenic work on the minds of the people. Adolph was a very charismatic
man.

Comments in no particular order:
1) From my readings I gained the information that the Japanese Army
wanted to go south (ie, not fight the Russians) and the Japanese navy
wanted to go north (ie, not fight the US and the UK.) The Army won.
(ASIR the minister of war was army.)
2) The 30-40 (ISTR?) Russian Army divisions facing the Japanese in
Siberia/Mongolia were released to the Western front after Sorge
informed the Stavka the Japanese were not going to attack Russia. This
really turned the tide after the attack on Moscow had failed and fresh
winter-hardened SovArmy troops attacked.
3) As I recall Yamamoto had said (more or less) "I can run wild for
six months - after that I can give no guarantee." His experience in
the US included a large amount of travel including the Texas oil
fields and the various manufacturing plants.
4) Had Hitler not begun exterminating the Ukrainians the Soviet Army
would have had a much tougher time. As it was the behind-the-lines
forces, regular and guerrilla, gave the road-bound German supply lines
fits. With the Ukrainian populace with him, as they were at the very
first few days, that wouldn't have been nearly so severe a problem.
The country 'ocean' would have been 'anti-fish', to paraphrase Mao.
Walt BJ
Walt BJ

"Tarver Engineering" wrote:

:"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
.. .
: Owe Jessen wrote:
:
: :Am 21 Oct 2003 16:09:53 -0700, schrieb (The
: :Black Monk) :
: :
: :Unfortunately, rather than statesmen Germany was led by madmen.
: :Hitler's racial theories prevented him from making Germany a leader of
: :Europe in the manner that America would later be. As Spengler
: :predicted in 1936, Hitler's sick reich didn't last 10 years.
: :
: :If Germany would have been lead by statesmen and not madmen it would
: :not have waged war, me thinks.
:
: And if Germany had been fairly treated by the victors of WWI, rather
: than robbed blind, and hadn't had such sensible options as Anshluss
: foreclosed, she might have been led by statesmen rather than madmen.
:
:I think the meth-amphetamines would have still done their paranoid
:schizoprenic work on the minds of the people. Adolph was a very charismatic
:man.

Then you should stop using the meth.

In article ,
Fred J. McCall writes:
Owe Jessen wrote:

:Am 21 Oct 2003 16:09:53 -0700, schrieb (The
:Black Monk) :
:
:Unfortunately, rather than statesmen Germany was led by madmen.
:Hitler's racial theories prevented him from making Germany a leader of
:Europe in the manner that America would later be. As Spengler
:predicted in 1936, Hitler's sick reich didn't last 10 years.
:
:If Germany would have been lead by statesmen and not madmen it would
:not have waged war, me thinks.

And if Germany had been fairly treated by the victors of WWI, rather
than robbed blind, and hadn't had such sensible options as Anshluss
foreclosed, she might have been led by statesmen rather than madmen.

I really don't think that that was the case. The near-simultaneous
collapse of the two phases of Imperial German society in late 1918 -
the defeat of the Army's Kaiserschlacht in France, and the collapse of
the Home Front or civilian ability to support the war, due to a
combination of lack of resources due to the British (and later,
Anglo-American) blockade of all German shipping, and the rise of the
various Communist and Anarchist rebellions in late 1918, left Germany
without a clear r sense that they had, in fact, lost the war. The
Front-Line veterans, and the Army General Staff (Who'd been running
the shpw by fair means or foul since just before the outbreak of the
First World War) felt that they'd been stabbed in the back by the
surrender by the REMFs in Berlin. As far as they were concerned, they
may of suffered some setbacks, but they hadn't lost. The Home Front
felt that they'd been let down by the Army, which surrendered after s
relatively small seris of setbacks. After all, the Army was still
deep within French terretory, wasn't it? This wasn't really true - the
Kaiser's Government had it right, and Germany had reached the point ot
total exhaustion - but we're dealing with emotions here, and not
fact. This general feeling that they hadn't really lost, and that if
they only tried a little harder next time, they'd win, pervaded most
aspects of German society in the 1920s and 1930s.

That was one of the motivations behind the "Unconditional Surrender"
demands of the Allies in the Second World War. They wanted the
Germans to be in no doubt that they'd lost, by losing in that manner,
it put out most of the smouldering embers, if you will, of resentment
that gave Hitler such a receptive audience.

That's not to say that Germany wasn't treated with excessive harshness
at Versailles. But when you balance the Treaty mandated reparations
against the forgiveness of those debts by the British and American
governments, and the loans and loan guarantees provided to teh Weimar
Republic, it's not really a serious issue.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster