This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene

From: (The Enlightenment)
Date: 12/23/2003 11:20 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(B2431) wrote in message
...
From: "The Enlightenment"

Never happened that way. You refer to the Malmedy tragedy? It was a
small breakout attempt by 2 prisoners that turned into a few shots that
became a panic breakout that cost about 18 lives. It eventualy became a
propaganda lie that it seems to me is passionatly cherished perhaps
because
it serves a purpose. An almost completely fabricated version of it is
endlessly and somewhat disgracefullty repeated without footnote in the
Movie
"The battle for the Bulge". It Seems to have been an excuse for
justifying
the murdering of the excedingly young conscipt Germans trying to surrender

Those things happened on an individual basis by all sides. The age of the
conscript had no bearing. He was in an enemy uniform.

and particularly Waffen SS. What little "evidence" that exists was
discredited as it came via the beating to a pulp of 18 German prisoners
testicles after the war.

Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens
in
the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can
be
very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American
units
that did this.


Another version is this:


The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by
wartime
sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st
Panzer
Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were
laid
out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew
this
event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried
after
the war for their participation in this war crime.


I will wait patiently while you provide verifiable sources for either of
those
fantasies.

I am on holidays at the momment and not anywhere near my materials.
However if you try Karl Poppers method of testing the orthodoxy by
falsifying it you can find lots of very strong arguments against a
deliberate massacre on the web yourself. They were so strong that the
trial had to be abandoned.



The photographs I have seen show a lot more than 18 dead.

Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.

Not of the Wermacht, maybe, but your beloved 2nd Waffen SS DID. How about
Maise? How about Putten? As much as you adore your Nazis you can't rewrite
their criminal actions.


And Oradeur wasn't either, I suppose?

No that's right. There is a huge amount of inconsistancy in the case
against the Germans. You can find quite a lot of this on the internet
and the case was eventualy dropped. A likely explanation was a
Marquis munitions store under the church blew up.

Ok, now explain how the church is mostly intact including the floor. Explain
how many buildings showed evidence of fires being started inside. I suppose the
citizens of Oradour killed themselves?

The Maquis were not active in all parts of France. Were they even there?


That was a small town in France where
your beloved SS shot all the men they could find and locked all the women
and
children they could find in the church, then setting fire to it. I guess
burning women and children to death wasn't their way in the west either.

All very terrible but it isn't true: not in that form anyway.

The truth is hard to accept for all sides sometimes. Humans by nature
use lies and exaggeration to villify others and thus to generate
cohesive action. This is so inportant we happily decieve even
ourselves by not inquiring too deeply and readily going along with
convenient "atrocities". The cohesive actiona is the objective and
not the truth so dissidents who try to expose the truth are not always
liked: they can damage the myths that unify us.

Neverthelss living a history that is not a truth is excedingly
dangerous.


Amazing, next you will tell us how 6 million Jews and 6 million non Jews were
not murdered in Baba Yar, Sobibor, Madainek, Auschwitz, Dachau etc? You will
then tell us those numbers are exaggerations despite all the documents the Nazi
pigs kept and fell into Allied hands?


Dan, U. S. Air force, retired

On 23 Dec 2003 21:06:22 -0800, (The Enlightenment)
wrote:


So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
and were them murdered several times by being shot at night

An interesting claim



Sarcasm does not become you.


In the case of a proven liar and a neo nazi revisionist its entirely
justified.


greg

--
Once you try my burger baby,you'll grow a new thyroid gland.
I said just eat my burger, baby,make you smart as Charlie Chan.
You say the hot sauce can't be beat. Sit back and open wide.

From: Greg Hennessy
Date: 12/24/2003 4:47 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On 23 Dec 2003 21:06:22 -0800, (The Enlightenment)
wrote:


So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
and were them murdered several times by being shot at night

An interesting claim



Sarcasm does not become you.


In the case of a proven liar and a neo nazi revisionist its entirely
justified.


greg

--

Ask him how people could be murdered several times at night.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

(B2431) wrote:


Ask him how people could be murdered several times at night.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Hell yes...it'd be hard enough in daylight I'd think.
--

-Gord.

From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 12/24/2003 11:12 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(B2431) wrote:


Ask him how people could be murdered several times at night.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Hell yes...it'd be hard enough in daylight I'd think.
--

-Gord.

Which begs the question; how many times can an individual be murdered?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

In article , Keith Willshaw keithNoSp
writes

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...



Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens
in
the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can
be
very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American
units
that did this.



So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
and were them murdered several times by being shot at night

An interesting claim
If you allow for the mangled English (I'd mangle German worse!) he's
probably making a valid point. Remagen is, sadly, all too well
attested, and it's possibly the same errors were perpetrated elsewhe
miscalculation and callousness rather than a deliberate intention to
take lives. Remagen looks worse because there was a Red Cross supply
dump immediately adjacent to the camp that could have alleviated the
nutrition problem. We were lucky that we were able to repatriate the
Argentineans so quickly after the cessation of hostilities in the
Falklands before the situation on Stanley airfield became unmanageable.

Regards
Keith



--
Moramarth

Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: Moramarth
Date: 12/25/03 1:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article , Keith Willshaw keithNoSp
writes

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...



Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens
in
the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can
be
very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American
units
that did this.



So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
and were them murdered several times by being shot at night

An interesting claim
If you allow for the mangled English (I'd mangle German worse!) he's
probably making a valid point. Remagen is, sadly, all too well
attested, and it's possibly the same errors were perpetrated elsewhe
miscalculation and callousness rather than a deliberate intention to
take lives. Remagen looks worse because there was a Red Cross supply
dump immediately adjacent to the camp that could have alleviated the
nutrition problem. We were lucky that we were able to repatriate the
Argentineans so quickly after the cessation of hostilities in the
Falklands before the situation on Stanley airfield became unmanageable.

Regards
Keith



--
Moramarth


What does the bridge at Remagen have to do with with the Malmedy massacre?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article , ArtKramr
writes
Remagen is, sadly, all too well
attested, and it's possibly the same errors were perpetrated elsewhe
miscalculation and callousness rather than a deliberate intention to
take lives. Remagen looks worse because there was a Red Cross supply
dump immediately adjacent to the camp that could have alleviated the
nutrition problem. We were lucky that we were able to repatriate the
Argentineans so quickly after the cessation of hostilities in the
Falklands before the situation on Stanley airfield became unmanageable.


What does the bridge at Remagen have to do with with the Malmedy massacre?
Happy Christmas, Art (although it's been Boxing Day for about an hour
here already) and best wishes for the coming year. I too appreciate
your posts, and should have said so earlier.

I'm not referring either to the bridge or the Malmedy massacre, but the
earlier reference to accounts by Austrian POWs of being held in open
pens in adverse conditions. Regrettably, something similar did happen
at Remagen shortly after the town was taken. The incident was the
subject of a TV documentary some years ago, it may have been part of the
BBC "Timewatch" series. It has not so much been covered up as just not
spoken of in polite company - the programme researchers found much of
the information was freely available. IIRC, the problem was that when
Axis forces in the west started surrendering in large numbers, they
became a strain on the Allied supply lines, and for logistical purposes
it was inquired of the US Army medical department what was the minimum
nutrition which could be provided for enemy POWs. The figure calculated
was adequate, but on the basis of men in initially good condition housed
in permanent establishments with barracks; however it became adopted as
flat rate figure for all circumstances. A large "pen" at Remagen was
intended as a temporary establishment and was simply a wired compound
(or compounds) with no permanent shelters and little of any other sort,
and it ended up containing a large number of men essentially in the open
for several weeks in bad conditions - but you will know what the weather
was like at that time. The result was a large number (ISTR the
programme was talking of thousands) of deaths from hypothermia and
malnutrition amongst the prisoners. Small change compared with the
Eastern Front, but something which we as the good guys were a bit
ashamed of and not eager to have discussed - and as the other side were
in no position to point fingers afterward, it sort of became
conveniently forgotten. However, it appears lessons were learned, hence
my reference to the Argentineans from the Falklands being repatriated
before there was even a proper end to hostilities - the tentage and
other equipment intended to house them having been lost on the "Atlantic
Conveyor".

Regards,
Arthur Kramer


--
Moramarth

To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
that did this.

Since no American units have ever been assembled based on ethnicity (with Negro
units being the obvious exception), I find your above statement ridiculous.



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Subject: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
From: Moramarth
Date: 12/25/03 5:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article , ArtKramr
writes
Remagen is, sadly, all too well
attested, and it's possibly the same errors were perpetrated elsewhe
miscalculation and callousness rather than a deliberate intention to
take lives. Remagen looks worse because there was a Red Cross supply
dump immediately adjacent to the camp that could have alleviated the
nutrition problem. We were lucky that we were able to repatriate the
Argentineans so quickly after the cessation of hostilities in the
Falklands before the situation on Stanley airfield became unmanageable.


What does the bridge at Remagen have to do with with the Malmedy massacre?
Happy Christmas, Art (although it's been Boxing Day for about an hour
here already) and best wishes for the coming year. I too appreciate
your posts, and should have said so earlier.

I'm not referring either to the bridge or the Malmedy massacre, but the
earlier reference to accounts by Austrian POWs of being held in open
pens in adverse conditions. Regrettably, something similar did happen
at Remagen shortly after the town was taken. The incident was the
subject of a TV documentary some years ago, it may have been part of the
BBC "Timewatch" series. It has not so much been covered up as just not
spoken of in polite company - the programme researchers found much of
the information was freely available. IIRC, the problem was that when
Axis forces in the west started surrendering in large numbers, they
became a strain on the Allied supply lines, and for logistical purposes
it was inquired of the US Army medical department what was the minimum
nutrition which could be provided for enemy POWs. The figure calculated
was adequate, but on the basis of men in initially good condition housed
in permanent establishments with barracks; however it became adopted as
flat rate figure for all circumstances. A large "pen" at Remagen was
intended as a temporary establishment and was simply a wired compound
(or compounds) with no permanent shelters and little of any other sort,
and it ended up containing a large number of men essentially in the open
for several weeks in bad conditions - but you will know what the weather
was like at that time. The result was a large number (ISTR the
programme was talking of thousands) of deaths from hypothermia and
malnutrition amongst the prisoners. Small change compared with the
Eastern Front, but something which we as the good guys were a bit
ashamed of and not eager to have discussed - and as the other side were
in no position to point fingers afterward, it sort of became
conveniently forgotten. However, it appears lessons were learned, hence
my reference to the Argentineans from the Falklands being repatriated
before there was even a proper end to hostilities - the tentage and
other equipment intended to house them having been lost on the "Atlantic
Conveyor".

Regards,
Arthur Kramer


--
Moramarth



Thanks for the heads up. To me Malmedy means only a bridge. Interesting to hear
about it although we all knew that the surrendering forces were a severe burden
on supplies. I guess we never planned on feeding two armies, ours and theirs.
(sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer