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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 27th 07, 05:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Tom Inglima
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 45
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

Spins have NEVER been in the private pilot PTS. The PTS (Practical Test
Standard) only has been in existence for around 20 years or so. The last
time spins were required for a Private Certificate was back in the early
1950's or maybe the late 1940's. Note that there is nothing that prevents
an instructor from teaching spins to a student pilot. However you would
have to wear parachutes to be legal since the regs only allow spins without
the wearing of parachutes for people training for a flight instructor
certificate.

The predecessor for the PTS was the Flight Test Guides. These were slim
volumes of not more than 20 pages and about 2 or 3 inches wide and about 4
inches high. In any case they were smaller than a 3 by 5 index card. they
had very broad descriptions of maneuvers' and gave examiners and inspectors
wide latitude in what and how they wanted you to perform various maneuvers.
Part 61 was actually a much better regulation then in that it clearly made
the CFI responsible for preparing a competent pilot that was able to show
good judgment.

The predecessor regs and guidance was to list the actual maneuvers in the
reg. If you could get a monkey to somehow do the maneuver a certificate
would be issued.

Tom Inglima

"Chris G." [email protected] wrote in message
eenews.net...
Besides, spin training is NOT required for a private pilot certificate.
Spin AWARENESS (aka recognizing you're going to get into a spin) is
required. Spins are not part of the PTS anymore though.

I don't necessarily think that omitting spins from the PTS is the best
move the FAA has made, but I don't know the whole story. I know I'm
having my instructor make sure he teaches me spins in the 150 I'm learning
in. I believe that training in spins and spin recovery is a very
important skills that could save my life one day.

Chris


wrote:
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:46:42 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
[email protected] wrote:


wrote in message
...

On 27 Apr 2005 09:43:30 -0700, "Noah Fiedel"
wrote:


In addition, were you & your instructor wearing parachutes
as required for aerobatic flight?


Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

Looked to me like a roll not a spin.



Oooops.

Never mind.




Ads
  #2  
Old February 27th 07, 07:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
RST Engineering
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,147
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

Note that what is said here is not true. The regs say that you can teach
any maneuver that is "required for a rating" without parachutes. This
includes spins. You can teach a student spins without a parachute(s) if
you wish.

Jim


Note that there is nothing that prevents
an instructor from teaching spins to a student pilot. However you would
have to wear parachutes to be legal since the regs only allow spins
without the wearing of parachutes for people training for a flight
instructor certificate.



  #3  
Old February 27th 07, 10:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Jim Macklin
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Posts: 2,070
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

A CFI may instruct spins to any level of pilot without
parachutes being worn. The spin is required for the CFI
applicant, but since it is required for some level of
certificate, it may be taught to any pilot. Of course no
passengers may be aboard, just the CFI and the "student."

91.307
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an
approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying
any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any
intentional maneuver that exceeds-

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative
to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to-

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the
regulations for any certificate or rating when given by-

(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance
with 61.67 of this chapter





"Tom Inglima" wrote in message
.. .
| Spins have NEVER been in the private pilot PTS. The PTS
(Practical Test
| Standard) only has been in existence for around 20 years
or so. The last
| time spins were required for a Private Certificate was
back in the early
| 1950's or maybe the late 1940's. Note that there is
nothing that prevents
| an instructor from teaching spins to a student pilot.
However you would
| have to wear parachutes to be legal since the regs only
allow spins without
| the wearing of parachutes for people training for a flight
instructor
| certificate.
|
| The predecessor for the PTS was the Flight Test Guides.
These were slim
| volumes of not more than 20 pages and about 2 or 3 inches
wide and about 4
| inches high. In any case they were smaller than a 3 by 5
index card. they
| had very broad descriptions of maneuvers' and gave
examiners and inspectors
| wide latitude in what and how they wanted you to perform
various maneuvers.
| Part 61 was actually a much better regulation then in that
it clearly made
| the CFI responsible for preparing a competent pilot that
was able to show
| good judgment.
|
| The predecessor regs and guidance was to list the actual
maneuvers in the
| reg. If you could get a monkey to somehow do the maneuver
a certificate
| would be issued.
|
| Tom Inglima
|
| "Chris G." [email protected] wrote in message
|
eenews.net...
| Besides, spin training is NOT required for a private
pilot certificate.
| Spin AWARENESS (aka recognizing you're going to get into
a spin) is
| required. Spins are not part of the PTS anymore though.
|
| I don't necessarily think that omitting spins from the
PTS is the best
| move the FAA has made, but I don't know the whole story.
I know I'm
| having my instructor make sure he teaches me spins in
the 150 I'm learning
| in. I believe that training in spins and spin recovery
is a very
| important skills that could save my life one day.
|
| Chris
|
|
| wrote:
| On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:46:42 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
| [email protected] wrote:
|
|
| wrote in message
| ...
|
| On 27 Apr 2005 09:43:30 -0700, "Noah Fiedel"

| wrote:
|
|
| In addition, were you & your instructor wearing
parachutes
| as required for aerobatic flight?
|
|
| Not required, since spin training is required for a
rating.
|
| Looked to me like a roll not a spin.
|
|
| Oooops.
|
| Never mind.
|
|
|
|



  #4  
Old February 27th 07, 12:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Ron Natalie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,175
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

RST Engineering wrote:
Note that what is said here is not true. The regs say that you can teach
any maneuver that is "required for a rating" without parachutes. This
includes spins. You can teach a student spins without a parachute(s) if
you wish.

Actually the regulation specifically mentions spins. It doesn't
matter they were required for a rating or not. The "required
for a rating" part applies to the "and other maonouvers".

The FAA has affirmed that once a manouver is required in
training (not necessarily for the checkride) for any rating
it's fare game for ANY instructional use at any time.

Except of course, while using MSFS.
  #5  
Old February 27th 07, 02:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Jose
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 897
Default PED Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

Actually the regulation specifically mentions spins. It doesn't
matter they were required for a rating or not.


Well, not quite. See below:

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the
regulations for any certificate or rating when given by-


That is, "Spins and other...", which means something different from
"Spins, and other..."

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #6  
Old February 28th 07, 03:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 790
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
Note that what is said here is not true. The regs say that you can teach
any maneuver that is "required for a rating" without parachutes. This
includes spins. You can teach a student spins without a parachute(s) if
you wish.

Jim


And, one could consider the fact that wearing a parachute or not won't make
one bit of difference (at least as far as survival is concerned) in 90+% of
the aircraft used for training if one were to find a spin to be
unrecoverable and/or if one were to pull the wings off.

For the parachute to do any good, you would have to be able to open the door
far enough to actually get out of the airplane. You could do it in a
Citabria or 150 Acro with the door release - or something like a Cub. But
anything else? Naah...

But, of course, if one were to die inside the aircraft, having a 'chute on
should be enough to assure that one would go to heaven since he and/or she
would have died while complying with FAA regulations. The rest of us will
end up in a significantly less comforable environment, eh?

Personally I think spins are fun.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.


  #7  
Old March 1st 07, 02:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
vincent p. norris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 122
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

The last time spins were required for a Private Certificate was back in the early
1950's or maybe the late 1940's.


I can verify that spins were required in 1947.

vince norris
  #8  
Old March 1st 07, 02:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Todd W. Deckard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150


"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote in message
And, one could consider the fact that wearing a parachute or not won't
make one bit of difference (at least as far as survival is concerned) in
90+% of the aircraft used for training if one were to find a spin to be
unrecoverable and/or if one were to pull the wings off.


Why would you say this? The door would be fairly easy to open in a spin.
In a high
speed loss of control it might be very difficult to overcome aerodynamic
resistance but
it is possible to open a forward hinged door and force it open enough to
squeeze out
at even 100kts in straight flight. With a modern canopy you stand a chance
of a survivable
deployment at even a few hundred feet.

The only reason I responded to the post is to encourage anyone wearing a
parachute
to drill the procedure like any other flying skill (and I know this was a
casual usenet
post, but avoid those negative thoughts).

1. Jettison the canopy/pull the door release pins (if so equipped)
2. Grasp the door frame/strut with one hand
3. Then, release the seat belt(s) with the other hand
4. pull clear and jump
5. assume the hard arch position, look, grasp the ripcord with both hands
and pull
to full arm extension until the cables clear the housing.
6. Discard the ripcord handle and look over your right shoulder.

There was a series of articles in Soaring/Sport Aerobatics a few years ago:

http://www.silverparachutes.com/uplo...PROCEDURES.htm

I would encourage anyone to make a recreational jump, even a tandem, to
familiarize
themselves with the experience. You may find it opens the door to a whole
new
expression of aviation; after all riding in a boat ain't swimming and by the
same token
sitting in an airplane isn't really flying ...

Stay Lucky,
Todd


  #9  
Old March 1st 07, 03:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Alan Gerber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 104
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

In rec.aviation.student Todd W. Deckard wrote:
I would encourage anyone to make a recreational jump, even a tandem, to
familiarize
themselves with the experience. You may find it opens the door to a whole
new
expression of aviation; after all riding in a boat ain't swimming and by the
same token
sitting in an airplane isn't really flying ...


Neither is dropping straight down to the earth.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com
  #10  
Old March 1st 07, 04:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.aerobatics,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
john smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,446
Default Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

In article . net,
"Todd W. Deckard" wrote:

Why would you say this? The door would be fairly easy to open in a spin.
In a high speed loss of control it might be very difficult to overcome
aerodynamic resistance but it is possible to open a forward hinged door
and force it open enough to squeeze out at even 100kts in straight flight.
With a modern canopy you stand a chance of a survivable deployment at
even a few hundred feet.


I wouldn't be too positive about those statements.
I have over 300 freefalls and 25 hours of acro in a Citabria.
The Citabria only has one door... on the right side. In a right spin,
the rate of descent is still going to be about 800 fpm with an indicated
airspeed of 45-50 mph. That's quite and airload on the inside turn side
of the airframe. Add to that centrifugal forces and getting through the
doorway after jettisoning the door will be a challenging proposition.
You have two sets of seatbelts to release, a headset to remove and a
body with a parachute attached to fit through the doorway. When you exit
you will be on the inside side of the airplane, which you have to clear
before you pull the D-ring.
Tic-toc, the clock is winding down as fast as the altimeter.
I have knowledge of only one acro pilot who successfully exited a
Decathlon.
 




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